Don Goren

[RJT]

I've read the original articles written by Don Goren on his shuffle tracking system, and i know that when they were released Arnold Snyder was very scheptical and issued a challenge. I'm also aware that there was talk of Don publishing a book. Does anyone know what happened with this?

RJT.

 

[Kasi]

I've read the original articles written by Don Goren on his shuffle tracking system, and i know that when they were released Arnold Snyder was very scheptical and issued a challenge. I'm also aware that there was talk of Don publishing a book. Does anyone know what happened with this?

RJT.

Not that I care one iota about shuffle-tracking, because I don't, but on a tangent perhaps, have any of you shuffle-tracker proponents, ever just bought a ASM and figured out how it shuffles? I would think shuffling the cards exactly the same way every time would be a big thing?

Or is shuffle-tracking only viable when u can physically see the shuffle?

I don't trust those machines anyway because I don't how many times 3-4ths of the way thru they have to stop because a card "got stuck". And why was it always a 5?

Related to that - do u think, if one insisted, they would show u that all of the cards are still present when asked by a player? I doubt it but I don't like cards disappearing down holes in the table and into machines. Who knows how many cards come back?

I mean u ever get a bunch of +shoes in a row and wonder why?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Goren. Isn't he the bridge expert?

 

[blackchipjim]

tracking

I have been practicing tracking shuffles for a short time now with some sucess. No you can't track a shuffle if the discards go into a auto-shuffle machine. The basic recipe for tracking requires you to know how the shufle occurs. Identifying the slugs good or bad and being able to follow the slug or slugs through to the end. Arnorld Synder in blackbelt in blackjack gives useful info on the subject. He wrote about a cookbook for tracking but I have not pursued this discipline that far yet. blackchipjim

 

[Kasi]

I have been practicing tracking shuffles for a short time now with some sucess. No you can't track a shuffle if the discards go into a auto-shuffle machine. The basic recipe for tracking requires you to know how the shufle occurs. Identifying the slugs good or bad and being able to follow the slug or slugs through to the end. Arnorld Synder in blackbelt in blackjack gives useful info on the subject. He wrote about a cookbook for tracking but I have not pursued this discipline that far yet. blackchipjim

Good luck with tracking the slugs - I can see how it may be possible. Although I watch I never really have a clue where it ends up lol.

But, what I meant was, if u knew exactly how a machine shuffles, I think it would be of + value because the 200th card would always end up in the 31st position etc.

Would u say your success in tracking have exceeded normal expecations in any way?

 

[sagefr0g]

......
But, what I meant was, if u knew exactly how a machine shuffles, I think it would be of + value because the 200th card would always end up in the 31st position etc.

.......

i thought of this also (in panic after i started practicing shuffle card tracking and the joint i play most went to all asm's).
the answer i got was that asm's use some sort of algorithm for the shuffling. i guess that means the cards are rarely shuffled the same way.

 

[blackchipjim]

tracking slugs

I have had varying degrees of success with tracking. I can do it but don't want to seem overly preoccupied with the shuffle. I first watch the type of shuffle the dealer does and get into the mechanics they use. I usually wait for an easy slug such as one that would contain an unusuallly high amount of high cards and follow that slug at the shuffle from behind the table. There are certain conditions that have to be met for me to bother. The most important is me cutting the deck. I'm just a prenovice and don't really take myself seriously at this because it takes alot of practice. I'm still trying to be a proficient card counter with a good act. blackchipjim

 

[Kasi]

i thought of this also (in panic after i started practicing shuffle card tracking and the joint i play most went to all asm's).
the answer i got was that asm's use some sort of algorithm for the shuffling. i guess that means the cards are rarely shuffled the same way.

Interesting. So they have a computer chip in them somewhere. Never knew that. I guess it makes sense. Wonder if it's programmable. Wonder if it's guaranteed by the Control Board or whatever for randomness.

I wonder if the algorithm, if it exists, would reset itself every time the power is turned off or is seeded in some other way.

So the casinos go to great lengths to have dealers shuffle the same way every time and let a machine shuffle differently every time.

 

[Sonny]

So they have a computer chip in them somewhere...Wonder if it's guaranteed by the Control Board or whatever for randomness.

Yes, the chip and the software must pass inspection for randomness and “fairness.” Of course, this may differ in other states/countries.

I wonder if the algorithm, if it exists, would reset itself every time the power is turned off or is seeded in some other way.

I don’t think it reset when the power is turned off. The casinos learned that lesson a while ago. And even if it did reset, you couldn’t be guaranteed that the dealer would insert the cards at exactly the same microsecond every day. In this case the dealer is also part of the randomizing device.

-Sonny-

 

[RJT]

And even if it did reset, you couldn’t be guaranteed that the dealer would insert the cards at exactly the same microsecond every day.
-Sonny-

Just to clarify on this point, most of the programs involved are time dependant, i.e. they decided what to do based on the fraction of a second when the input was given. Similar to what the online casinos use.
Back to the original point, i assume that nobody know of any follow up to the Don Goren articles then?

RJT.

 

[Mimosine]

Just to clarify on this point, most of the programs involved are time dependant, i.e. they decided what to do based on the fraction of a second when the input was given. Similar to what the online casinos use.
Back to the original point, i assume that nobody know of any follow up to the Don Goren articles then?

RJT.

i was just going to say that random algorithms, for the most part are generated from a time point, that is, the time is the input into the random number generator. that being said, ASMs don't necessisarily need to rely
on a random number generator to shuffle a deck. Have any of you ever used a hand crank shuffler? or are perfect at a riffle shuffle? a few of those effectively "mix up" a deck. now if an ASM actually reordered the cards, then shuffled, or used an algorithm where the cards were scanned and had to be distributed in a certain proportion, then that is a whole 'nother ball of wax, but i'm not so sure that those machines are that complicated. (side note, i was at a casino recently outside of vegas that shuffles THEN puts them in an ASM!!!)

from my limited experience with ASMs, they are just stupid machines - i've seen the same "clumps" of cards come out of them that i've seen at hand shuffled tables. none of this long winded retort adds anything to whether or not they are beatable. if there is a random number generator, there are still ways to beat it, if they are just "dumb" machines following a shuffling algorithm then they are beatable too. the best thing to do would be to get one, or figure out how to reverse engineer the shuffle, which might require a few hours of play with one.

 

[Sonny]

the best thing to do would be to get one, or figure out how to reverse engineer the shuffle, which might require a few hours of play with one.

Have at it:

(Dead link: http://www.hitorstand.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3694)

-Sonny-