Double Deck vs. Six Deck - Rules included which one is better?

[bjrookie]

Hello Everyone,

I have been a lurker for a couple months and have been thoroughly impressed with everyone's contribution to the community. I hope that i will also be able to contribute with some of my experiences as well.

Just a little background: I use the Hi-Lo system and consider myself a recreational player (not even an amateur). I have had some success but i pretty much have written it off as variance because i have found multiple leaks in my game just from reading this forum.

This leads me to my question:

Is it better to play Double Deck, S17, DAS, NO Surrender, Peek, SPLIT ACES ONCE
- I CAN KEEP TRACK OF THE COUNT WITH NO ISSUE AT ALL
- Casino Edge is .20% (not including only being able to split aces once)

Or is it better to play Six Deck, S17, DAS, Late Surrender, Peek, split aces 3 times
- IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO KEEP COUNT ON THIS GAME
- Casino Edge is listed as .36%

From the percentages, it seems that i should be playing double deck. But this does not include the edge i lose for only being able to split aces once. Any advice would be much appreciated. Please let me know if there needs to be any clarification.

thanks in advance.

 

[StudiodeKadent]

If you use Hi-Lo correctly then the edge you can get over the casino is >1%. Thus, take the easier-to-count game.

However, I warn you, double deck games are usually watched like a hawk by casinos, so be careful.

If you are terrified of potentially being backed off, I'd recommend brushing up your skills and playing against the six-deck game. You are less likely to attract attention.

 

[sagefr0g]

Hello Everyone,

I have been a lurker for a couple months and have been thoroughly impressed with everyone's contribution to the community. I hope that i will also be able to contribute with some of my experiences as well.

Just a little background: I use the Hi-Lo system and consider myself a recreational player (not even an amateur). I have had some success but i pretty much have written it off as variance because i have found multiple leaks in my game just from reading this forum.

This leads me to my question:

Is it better to play Double Deck, S17, DAS, NO Surrender, Peek, SPLIT ACES ONCE
- I CAN KEEP TRACK OF THE COUNT WITH NO ISSUE AT ALL
- Casino Edge is .20% (not including only being able to split aces once)

Or is it better to play Six Deck, S17, DAS, Late Surrender, Peek, split aces 3 times
- IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO KEEP COUNT ON THIS GAME
- Casino Edge is listed as .36%

From the percentages, it seems that i should be playing double deck. But this does not include the edge i lose for only being able to split aces once. Any advice would be much appreciated. Please let me know if there needs to be any clarification.

thanks in advance.

how does the penetration on those games compare?
how about crowding at the tables, comparably?
splitting aces three times is a good deal.

 

[ihate17]

pen and players at the table

I have played often at this one casino that has a few $25-$100 double deck games, many low limit 6 deck games but only a couple of $25 or higher 6 deck games. Pen varies by dealer but the double deck average is perhaps only 60%, with one shift having near 75% by several dealers but another shift where everyone cuts around 50%. 6 deck pen is pretty consistant around 75%.

The thing about this place is that unless you are playing between 4AM and 9AM or so, every double deck table has 5-7 players and at their slowest time they give the worst pen. While, nearly 24/7 you can find a $25 shoe game either heads up or with no more than 2 other players.

Though the house edge is about .10% better on the DD game, the conditions of both games make the 6D game, in my opinion, the correct one for me to play. Add to that what has been said before, they watch their DD games extremely carefully and nearly ignore the shoes.

ihate17

 

[bjrookie]

thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure what penetration means? Can you please explain?

The tables are usually not too crowded. I usually play in the middle of the night so i can usually get headsup. I have also noticed that less people are playing $100+ hands.

I usually have a spread of 1-6. Do you guys think it is sufficient?

 

[StudiodeKadent]

thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure what penetration means? Can you please explain?

Penetration = how deeply into the shoe the cards are dealt before a reshuffle or new shoe. Higher pen usually means higher true counts.

 

[bjrookie]

thanks for the clarification... I'll usually get 60% penetration sometimes 70% if i'm lucky. Six deck is usually 80% penetration.

 

[iCountNTrack]

thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure what penetration means? Can you please explain?

The tables are usually not too crowded. I usually play in the middle of the night so i can usually get headsup. I have also noticed that less people are playing $100+ hands.

I usually have a spread of 1-6. Do you guys think it is sufficient?

Mate, based on your questions and without being condescending, i am afraid you are not ready to hit the casinos yet as a card counter.
Penetration is one of the most important things for a card counter. Penetration is the percentage of the shoe that is play before a new shuffle takes place. Almost equally important is the number of decks, soon you will find out that for instance a 75% 4 deck game is superior to a 75% 6D game (if all the rules are the same).
If i were you first thing i should do is invest in a BJ simulator, trust em it is really worth every single penny if you are serious about the game.
Just some amicable advices so you don't throw your money away at the casinos .

 

[iCountNTrack]

Penetration = how deeply into the shoe the cards are dealt before a reshuffle or new shoe. Higher pen usually means higher true counts.

Not so true mate, higher penetration is better because the True Count is more accurate deeper in the shoe.

 

[Thunder]

Without question, I'd take the 6 deck game. Better penetration most likely and you're forgetting one huge factor for counters. The ability to surrender will save your arse in big counts.

 

[StudiodeKadent]

Not so true mate, higher penetration is better because the True Count is more accurate deeper in the shoe.

Sorry, my mistake.

 

[bjrookie]

Mate, based on your questions and without being condescending, i am afraid you are not ready to hit the casinos yet as a card counter.
Penetration is one of the most important things for a card counter. Penetration is the percentage of the shoe that is play before a new shuffle takes place. Almost equally important is the number of decks, soon you will find out that for instance a 75% 4 deck game is superior to a 75% 6D game (if all the rules are the same).
If i were you first thing i should do is invest in a BJ simulator, trust em it is really worth every single penny if you are serious about the game.
Just some amicable advices so you don't throw your money away at the casinos .

thanks... i appreciate the frank advice . my brother (who taught me to count) has always called it "depth" or "depth of the shoe" so i definitely understand the concept. I also definitely agree that i am not ready to be a card counter "for money" so to speak.

I have always read that 1-6 spread is sufficient for DD. Is that the general consensus?

 

[NDN21]

From the percentages, it seems that i should be playing double deck. But this does not include the edge i lose for only being able to split aces once. Any advice would be much appreciated. Please let me know if there needs to be any clarification.

Have you included the advantage lost by not being able to count in 6 deck games? Without an accurate count then there goes your advantage.

If DD seems to be more easier simply because you get to start the count over quicker when you lose the count then you aren't ready. If you can't count comfortably then PRACTICE AT HOME WHERE IT'S FREE until it comes much easier.

It might be suggested to you to learn to be able to keep the count accurate in any situation including full table down to headsup, with any # of decks. Last thing you want is to have a very high count then have all the other players walk away, leaving just you and the dealer and not be able to keep up an accurate count.

If DD seems to be more easier simply because you get to start the count over quicker .....

what the hell was I thinking

 

[rukus]

Sorry, my mistake.

additionally, with higher pen you will be see bigger fluctuations in TCs (ie you will see higher or lower TCs more often).

 

[sagefr0g]

Originally Posted by StudiodeKadent View Post
Penetration = how deeply into the shoe the cards are dealt before a reshuffle or new shoe. Higher pen usually means higher true counts.

Not so true mate, higher penetration is better because the True Count is more accurate deeper in the shoe.

not quite sure how it is the true count is more accurate deeper in the shoe.
well, i guess your confidence level would be greater.
if i'm understanding QFIT's link :http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration3.htm on this. it's like you get an advantage more often and the winrate apparently increases the more depth you can get?:whip:
well just it looks to me like positive true count frequencies are more frequent as depth increases. like the chart in the image below from Wong's book.

 

[iCountNTrack]

additionally, with higher pen you will be see bigger fluctuations in TCs (ie you will see higher or lower TCs more often).

True because the divisor (number of decks) is smaller, however that is not why the deeper penetration is better for the true count. True count is a concentration, and for a concentration to be accurate, the mixture it represents must be homogeneous, this is not the case with a shoe of cards which is a heterogeneous mixture, however the heterogeneity decreases at deeper penetration making the true count more accurate.

 

[johndoe]

True because the divisor (number of decks) is smaller, however that is not why the deeper penetration is better for the true count. True count is a concentration, and for a concentration to be accurate, the mixture it represents must be homogeneous, this is not the case with a shoe of cards which is a heterogeneous mixture, however the heterogeneity decreases at deeper penetration making the true count more accurate.

I don't think this is correct. True count always represents the ratio of high to low cards, and regardless of how many decks remain, the ratio is the same. If you're always dividing by the same increment (whole decks or half decks) the accuracy of TC is equal at all penetrations.

For all practical purposes, for an equal true count, the heterogeneity of the remaining cards is the same regardless of how many decks are left.

 

[bjcount]

True because the divisor (number of decks) is smaller, however that is not why the deeper penetration is better for the true count. True count is a concentration, and for a concentration to be accurate, the mixture it represents must be homogeneous, this is not the case with a shoe of cards which is a heterogeneous mixture, however the heterogeneity decreases at deeper penetration making the true count more accurate.

Those "H" words are too big for my BJ vocabulary. If you keep the count correctly than "The Count" is accurate no matter what depth you are at in the shoe. What I think your trying to say is that if the count is high as you get deeper penetration those high cards your looking will be grouped together with less low/nuetral cards vs a shallow pen game where a high count will be mixed with many more cards which include all those neutral values (0's).

BJC

 

[iCountNTrack]

Those "H" words are too big for my BJ vocabulary. If you keep the count correctly than "The Count" is accurate no matter what depth you are at in the shoe. What I think your trying to say is that if the count is high as you get deeper penetration those high cards your looking will be grouped together with less low/nuetral cards vs a shallow pen game where a high count will be mixed with many more cards which include all those neutral values (0's).

BJC

HAHAH, my chemist instinct are kicking in. However i can't agree with you on the true count being uniformly accurate throughout the shoe, that is the floating advantage is all about after all.

 

[rukus]

True because the divisor (number of decks) is smaller, however that is not why the deeper penetration is better for the true count. True count is a concentration, and for a concentration to be accurate, the mixture it represents must be homogeneous, this is not the case with a shoe of cards which is a heterogeneous mixture, however the heterogeneity decreases at deeper penetration making the true count more accurate.

i think we both agree that the number one reason better pen is more advantageous is the increased frequency of high counts. we are just disagreeing on what gets us to those high TCs .

higher TC frequencies at the end of shoes is not really due to a smaller divisor, though obviously that does contribute since 1 card drawn at the top of the shoe makes no difference while 1 card drawn with 1 deck remaining will make a difference.

with no other information, at the start of a shoe, you expect TC =0, same at the middle, and same at the end. the more chances you can draw from the shoe, the more variability there is to number of high, low, and neutral cards you end up drawing. what i mean to say is though the average number of high, low, and neutral cards you expect to draw might not change based on penetration, the variance/std dev of those numbers will change based on penetration, allowing for more frequent occurrences of unbalanced ratios of high to low cards (in either direction).

good ol Norm provided a nice chart to sum this up:
http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration1.htm