El Cortez Suspected ASM Cheating

[Midwest Player]

Over at Norm's site, Spiderman started a thread on ASM cheating. Norm, had a hissy fit about the thread and moved it to the disadvantage forum and locked one of the threads. Another one he also moved to the disadvantage forum, but he left it open and then threatened he would ban anyone who posted about this on the main forum. I assume it would be okay to post about this on the disadvantage forum.

Okay, here is a warning to Spiderman. It is obvious Norm doesn't want this posted on his site. I suggest you tread lightly there and refrain from posting about it over there. I think just about everyone knows your identity (your real handle) and you are fortunate Norm has let you back without banning you again. I for one am happy to see you being allowed to post again on Norm's site.

I'm still interested in these El Cortez events and if there are any more updates maybe they could be posted here. I'm all for stopping this cheating if is taking place and think it is terrible you are receiving threats from blackjack players.

 

[KewlJ]

Well MWP, looks like any updates will HAVE to be done here since Norm has banned spiderman. I am going to make one brief comment about that and then move on as I know that discussion isn't appreciated here.

It's a shame. I only wanted to contribute in a positive manner, as I did for the first 4 years at BJTF, before the feud and banning. And now 3 years later, with the benefit of what has transpired, anyone should be able to see my intentions in that whole dispute were warranted. I thought and hoped other parties were ready to move on, and it appears most were. But it was not to be. Interesting numbers from spiderman's short existence: 25 for 25 helpful rating. That would be 100% by my math. And those 25 helpful's occurred in 56 total posts. That doesn't seem like data of a member being disruptive and worthy of a ban. But again, not my call.

So the update is that on my most recent visit to the location in question, the specific ASM's had been replaced. For how long I do not know. I did a quick look around, looking to see if they had just been swapped out at a different table, and it didn't look like it. I guess that is not totally surprising given the discussion made it's way to 4 different sites, 2, I brought it up and at 2, others members carried it over.

I am really debating with myself, just how much I want to be involved going forward. This isn't a case about money. I don't see provable damages. In my mind, it would be about getting a ruling from Gaming that this can't continue, similar to the Mindplay outcome. As a matter of fact, I see striking similarities to the Mindplay case.

Now truth be told, the past few days have been eye opening and educational to me. I had no idea that bringing this to light, would be outing an AP play that some members of the community were exploiting. Had I known that, I would not have done so. I would have handled it just as I did my earlier experience.....stop playing that casino and hope this 'cheating' didn't spread.

And now that I have in my possession, one of the ASM machines in question, I am learning some interesting things. Had another AP, much smarter than me over yesterday and well like I said....interesting things. Perhaps there will be an opportunity for me to issue my own form of punishment and revenge to these cheating casinos. Where is my robinhood hat and tights? (with me playing the part of the poor). That may just be wishful thinking...we'll see.

Thanks for all your support and kind words over the years. Much appreciated to know that some in the community appreciate my participation and sharing my experiences. That is really what this community is supposed to be about.

kj

 

[ZenKinG]

I got banned too. The jokes on Norm though because he lives a miserable life and takes it out on banning people. If he actually knew how to run a forum maybe that site could actually have posters who actually 'play' and not a bunch of frauds who just spam endless bullshit. Instead he rather be a little girl and hold grudges for people who didnt even do nothing wrong. I was banned years ago on that forum and originally my suspension was about a year and a half. I served my time and then he changes my suspension time to private without explanation. If it was because of making multiple handles, I only did that because he changed my suspension to private without telling me why.

But like I said the jokes on him just like the jokes on casinos who back me off. They are using so much emergy to back a 2x200 player who asks for no drinks at the table, uses no player card and simy plays the game like everyone else who is making maybe 45-50 an hour in EV LOL.

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

I`m wondering why Norm doesn`t believe it`s going on and then moved the thread into the Disadvantage Forum section.... Whether he has something against KJ for whatever happened in the past or not, from his perspective, why would KJ (or anyone for that matter) make up a series of events like they went down?? No one would; where would the motive in that be? I`m sure anyone who knows how the story unraveled can see what I`m saying. On top of that, one of the most active and long-standing members on his forum (Three), stated in that same thread that he knew it was going on and also knew how to beat it. I guess Norm doesn`t believe him either. I was going to ask in the thread, but I seriously doubt me saying anything would change his mind about letting the thread live in the main section, so I never ended up doing so. If he doesn`t believe Three, then I know I`m not going to change his mind. Anyway, it sucks how things went down. When someone does the right thing by trying to warn others (not only KJ, but BJGenius007 too) and then gets a ton of shit for doing so, that`s a terrible shame.

 

[ZenKinG]

The biggest red flag is when someone IMMEDIATELY denies something and then gets defensive and angry about it. To me that's a red flag. Whether or not Norm is buddy buddy with casinos I dont know, nor do I care, but im suspicious of anyone who denies everything RIGHT AWAY and is not open to any new ideas and immediately gets defensive about it and calls people paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. Oh wait that reminds me of our government. How coincidental.

 

[bjo32]

The biggest red flag is when someone IMMEDIATELY denies something and then gets defensive and angry about it. To me that's a red flag. Whether or not Norm is buddy buddy with casinos I dont know, nor do I care, but im suspicious of anyone who denies everything RIGHT AWAY and is not open to any new ideas and immediately gets defensive about it and calls people paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. Oh wait that reminds me of our government. How coincidental.

This is not a new idea. People have been accusing ASMs of clumping and cheating since they first come out. Check some archives on forums. These accusations come up every couple years, but nothing is every proved and no lawsuits are ever brought against the companies making the shuffle machines or the casinos. You’d think by now there would be at least one lawsuit against a casino if this was really occurring. Why would a casino ever do this anyway? What would they have to gain? If they suspect someone of counting, why not back just them off or bar them like they’ve doing forever?

Personally, I see this kind of like Big Foot sightings. No one ever proves they exists but there are people who believe it and try to keep it alive. When people get bored they bring up these conspiracies and ridiculous accusations to stir the pot.

I agree with Norm on moving this to the disadvantage forum. What surprised me is how many reputable APs appeared to believe there might be something to these new accusations.

 

[LC Larry]

My take, the whole story is a fabrication from somebody with a grudge. Every single one of these ASM/CSM clumping, cheating, whatever, is pure bull concocted by lousy card counters who run into a bit of bad variance. Even the ploppie idiots at carnival games cry the same bullshit about those shufflers used on those games. KJ should know better. Even a bunch of "clumps" in a short period of time, IS part of random people!

 

[JJP]

My take, the whole story is a fabrication from somebody with a grudge. Every single one of these ASM/CSM clumping, cheating, whatever, is pure bull concocted by lousy card counters who run into a bit of bad variance. Even the ploppie idiots at carnival games cry the same bullshit about those shufflers used on those games. KJ should know better. Even a bunch of "clumps" in a short period of time, IS part of random people!

"ASM/CSM clumping" should be added to the BlackjackInfo.com glossary.

 

[LC Larry]

"ASM/CSM clumping" should be added to the BlackjackInfo.com glossary.

Look under the voodoo subsection.

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

The biggest red flag is when someone IMMEDIATELY denies something and then gets defensive and angry about it. To me that's a red flag. Whether or not Norm is buddy buddy with casinos I dont know, nor do I care, but im suspicious of anyone who denies everything RIGHT AWAY and is not open to any new ideas and immediately gets defensive about it and calls people paranoid or a conspiracy theorist. Oh wait that reminds me of our government. How coincidental.

I thought the same thing. If you look at the thread on here with your name on it, someone mentioned that he moved the thread because of worries about legal ramifications. I don`t understand how other people`s opinions on your forum could result in a lawsuit. Who knows though, I guess it could be possible.

 

[KewlJ]

My take, the whole story is a fabrication from somebody with a grudge. Every single one of these ASM/CSM clumping, cheating, whatever, is pure bull concocted by lousy card counters who run into a bit of bad variance. Even the ploppie idiots at carnival games cry the same bullshit about those shufflers used on those games. KJ should know better. Even a bunch of "clumps" in a short period of time, IS part of random people!

LC Larry, I am quite familiar with normal variance. I have had 4 different 6 month losing periods and just to be clear what we are talking about, that is 35-40 thousand rounds. (3 of those 4 years ended up finishing very close to expectation).

Nor do I have a "grudge". The casino mentioned is among my all time best. Top 5 in money won. And this year, in which this entire incident takes place is no exception. Overall I am very close to expectation at this property. Just not these 2 tables.

For people that immediately dismiss this as nonsense saying "the casino industry would never do such a blatant illegal thing"....I have one word. Mindplay.

Do you remember the Mindplay technology? Less than 15 years ago! Special table, cards, chips. The table or technology read the cards and chips in real time, knew the count or whether the table favored the player of house, in real time and when it favored the player, surveillance would signal or call down to the pit who would then have the dealer shuffle away the player advantage. This was clearly illegal, altering the odds of a game and using a devise to do so.

But the industry didn't care. As a matter of fact they came up with a completely ridiculous argument that they were using this technology to better track players wagers for the purpose of more accurately comping them. What a crock!

So when the ruling came down that they could use this technology to better track players wagers for comps, BUT had to do so with a delay, so they could not shuffle away player advantage in real time....guess what? They were no longer all that interested in accurately tracking players wagers.

This is Mindplay all over again! This industry employs things it knows are illegal, that everyone knows are illegal and doesn't care until they are officially told to stop.

And if this was 2003 and someone posted about Mindplay, I expect it would have been moved to the 'disadvantage section' section.

 

[bjo32]

LC Larry, I am quite familiar with normal variance. I have had 4 different 6 month losing periods and just to be clear what we are talking about, that is 35-40 thousand rounds. (3 of those 4 years ended up finishing very close to expectation).

Nor do I have a "grudge". The casino mentioned is among my all time best. Top 5 in money won. And this year, in which this entire incident takes place is no exception. Overall I am very close to expectation at this property. Just not these 2 tables.

For people that immediately dismiss this as nonsense saying "the casino industry would never do such a blatant illegal thing"....I have one word. Mindplay.

Do you remember the Mindplay technology? Less than 15 years ago! Special table, cards, chips. The table or technology read the cards and chips in real time, knew the count or whether the table favored the player of house, in real time and when it favored the player, surveillance would signal or call down to the pit who would then have the dealer shuffle away the player advantage. This was clearly illegal, altering the odds of a game and using a devise to do so.

But the industry didn't care. As a matter of fact they came up with a completely ridiculous argument that they were using this technology to better track players wagers for the purpose of more accurately comping them. What a crock!

So when the ruling came down that they could use this technology to better track players wagers for comps, BUT had to do so with a delay, so they could not shuffle away player advantage in real time....guess what? They were no longer all that interested in accurately tracking players wagers.

This is Mindplay all over again! This industry employs things it knows are illegal, that everyone knows are illegal and doesn't care until they are officially told to stop.

And if this was 2003 and someone posted about Mindplay, I expect it would have been moved to the 'disadvantage section' section.

KewlJ, I competently disagree with you. Mindplay and a shuffler that is designed to shuffle cards in a way to give the casino an added advantage are two totally different things. Look up Mindplay on Wikipedia. It was discontinued for many reasons other that the ones you've mentioned. The main reasons were the costs and it didn't work well. It cost casinos $20,000 per table and then casinos had to have a maintenance contract and it still didn't work well. That's not a good combination...high costs and a product that doesn't work well.

Was there anything illegal about MindPlay? No. Note that no player ever sued MindPlay. Who knows the casinos might have sued MindPlay for their money back since the product didn't work well. Did some casinos use it in a way that was viewed by the courts as illegal? Yes. As you've correctly pointed out, some casinos used it to shuffle up when MindPlay told them the deck was favorable for the player. This is when a lawsuit was brought against that casino. Again, most casinos did not do this and they still didn't like the product since it was costly and didn't work well.

What you're accusing casinos of doing with an ASM is very different than what occurred with MindPlay. MindPlay was NOT developed for the purpose of cheating. You're accusing casinos of developing an ASM to cheat, basically creating a nonrandom shuffle for the purpose of giving the casino an advantage. I'm not saying in theory this can't or hasn't happen, but it would make no sense for a casino to do this. It's much easier and less costly for a casino to just back off or bar a counter, and they don't need to worry about losing their license.

Note that these accusations have been going on since ASMs first came on the market and there has been no lawsuits brought against the casinos or the people making the ASMs. You'd think with all the people (both APs and ploppies) claiming these things, there would be at least one lawsuit or government investigation into this. I have not been able to find one. If you know of one, please post it.

I see this accusations as being more similar to people in rural American spotting Big Foot. There is no evidence Big Foot exists but there are still some fringe people (the paranoid and conspiracy nuts) that believe this.

 

[xengrifter]

you are fortunate Norm has let you back without banning you again.

No, just the opposite - he is unfortunate.

 

[KewlJ]

bjo32, Stop reading Wikipedia. That is not a good source of information.

 

[bjo32]

bjo32, Stop reading Wikipedia. That is not a good source of information.

KewlJ, I have read many other articles on MindPlay and posts on bj forums during the time casinos used it. I found an article that discussed the lawsuit brought by Bob Nersesian against a caisno that used it to shuffle up on players when the deck was favorable to the players. I get why this is wrong. This lawsuit had nothing to do with MindPlay itself or if MindPlay could be used to detect counters. It can. It had to do with casinos not being allowed to use a device to help them gain an added advantage against a player.

I stand by my contention that you are misleading people by trying to draw parallels between MindPlay and casinos allegedly programing ASMs to create a nonradom shuffle to cheat. These are two completely different things.

You need to do more research on MindPlay. The main reason it’s no longer around is because it’s expensive and didn’t work very well.

 

[Dummy]

I stand by my contention that you are misleading people by trying to draw parallels between MindPlay and casinos allegedly programing ASMs to create a nonradom shuffle to cheat. These are two completely different things.

If the allegations against the ASMs are true it is the same thing. A device is being used to change the odds of the game, which is clearly illegal in virtually every jurisdiction. If true shuffle master purposely manufactured a cheating device and sold it to casinos with the intent it would be used to cheat customers.

 

[Tater]

If the allegations against the ASMs are true it is the same thing. A device is being used to change the odds of the game, which is clearly illegal in virtually every jurisdiction. If true shuffle master purposely manufactured a cheating device and sold it to casinos with the intent it would be used to cheat customers.

O c'mon Dummy. You're no dummy. I've seen, with my own two peepers, a device on a table. The crazy part is I was told it didn't exist so I went back and looked again. But I had a choice to play or not. I chose NOT.

Now I realize you've got guys on the east coast seeing little green men flip switches and blinking lights and all. But my question is they are already dealing 312 cards and 50% pen, why do casinos need to do more to cheat you?

But now we are talking about a DD game. I'm sorry I'm just not a buyer that cheating is going on. If it is, then with deep enough pen, one should be able to overcome. But take it away and you're liable to end up
with 312 and 50% pen
blinking lights and little green men.

 

[bjo32]

If the allegations against the ASMs are true it is the same thing. A device is being used to change the odds of the game, which is clearly illegal in virtually every jurisdiction. If true shuffle master purposely manufactured a cheating device and sold it to casinos with the intent it would be used to cheat customers.

I can see you’re a little slow Dummy. Btw, you picked a good handle. I’ll run this by you very slowly again since I can tell you aren’t getting it. MindPlay is not a device used to change the odds. No lawsuit or allegation has ever claimed that. This is what people are claiming with ASMs since they first came out. In this matter, ploppies and many APs are in the same boat. I agree, if it can be proven, then this is illegal and casinos should lose their license and be fined big money. I don’t think anybody would disagree with that. And if you can show me a real Big Foot (preferable in a zoo, not with some grainy video footage), I’ll believe that too.

I’m staring to see the AP community has more than its fair share of conspiracy nuts, and you and Three appear to be one of them. I can see why some in the general public are sceptical of ASMs...someone puts cards in a black box and then pulls them out a couple minutes later and we’re supposed to believe they were shuffled. Something like this is a soft ball for the conspiracy nuts, who will beleieve anything. I would think the more intelligent in the AP world wouldn’t fall for this line of thinking though.

Btw, I’m also of the opinion Three and Dummy are the same person. And I also thought Tator’s story about Three and the cat was one of the funnier things I’ve read in a while. I read it several times and laughed each time.

 

[Dummy]

MindPlay is not a device used to change the odds.

If they use MindPlay to track the current odds of the game and shuffle early only when the casino is at a disadvantage then MindPlay is being used a cheating devise. If they paid a guy to do the same without a devise it would not be cheating. What makes it cheating is that the devise is used to determine the odds and the casino changes the game according to what the devise says. I don't care how slow you are that is the very definition of using a device to change the odds of the game. If you used your mind to bet bigger when you have an advantage it isn't cheating. If you used a devise to tell you the odds so you could adjust your bets accordingly or only play when you have an advantage everyone would agree you would be cheating. It is the same thing.

As for the other misinformation you posted about no lawsuit being filed claiming cheating, look at this link:

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2004/oct/19/gambler-files-lawsuit-over-card-counting-system/

A quote that sum up the article and the lawsuit:

The suit was filed by Las Vegas attorney Robert Nersesian, who has handled several cases for gamblers against casinos.

The suit alleges theft, conspiracy and fraud in the Eldorado's use of the MindPlay system. The filing says the Eldorado used the system to determine when the outcome of the game would be unfavorable to the casino and then reshuffled the deck.

According to the suit, "the MindPlay device had informed the casino that the deck or shoe had become favorable to the plaintiff and unfavorable for the Eldorado."

"The shuffle decision was directed and decided by the MindPlay device while the plaintiff was playing," the suit says. "In this sense, Eldorado and its dealer used a computer device to assist in projecting the outcome of the game, in keeping track of the cards played and in analyzing the probability of the occurrences of an event relating to the game."

In case you are too slow to know this Nersesian is using the exact terminology that legally defines a cheating devise in Las Vegas. In other words he is saying the way MindPlay was used was as a cheating devise.

NRS 465.075  Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.  It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:

1.  Projects the outcome of the game;

2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;

3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or

4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

I guess Nersesian didn't spell it out well enough for those that are really slow but studied everything about the Mindplay incident. Did I say it slow enough for you? You said you were so well versed on this but missed the most important part of the case.

 

[Tater]

Hey man. I was only joking. But the device of which you speak is the same place of where I saw and told didn't exist. In fairness to El Dorado, the company has since been purchased and the device has never been seen again. Standing O to new owners for all the improvements made. All pitch games are hand shuffled. Shoes are few. Are you saying the same can be accomplished by putting a chip in a machine?

FYI I wrote. this. very. slowly.