EMFH Team Play

[matt21]

EMFH team play - presumably this is where every team members plays individually and there are no guerillas or BPs.

Question 1:
Assume that team members play at the same casinos but at different days/times. Will it not look funny to have two separate players at different times using a vary similar betting ramp – bet ramps are not used a lot by the typical gamblers at my local venues so using a ramp stands out a little (particularly in heads-up play). Is this likely to raise suspicion with the surveillance team?

Question 2:
How on earth do you get around the honesty issue? Isn’t it impossible to avoid team members just pocketing a green chip here, a black chip there…. And if you only recruit people that you really trust to begin with, then your pool of potential recruits is going to be very small?

Question 3:
What's the best recruitment approach?

Question 4:
If solo play is going well then should setting up a EMFH team be the next logical step to get more playing hours, faster journey into the long-run, and higher returns on the BR?

 

[SystemsTrader]

EMFH team play - presumably this is where every team members plays individually and there are no guerillas or BPs.

Question 1:
Assume that team members play at the same casinos but at different days/times. Will it not look funny to have two separate players at different times using a vary similar betting ramp – bet ramps are not used a lot by the typical gamblers at my local venues so using a ramp stands out a little (particularly in heads-up play). Is this likely to raise suspicion with the surveillance team?

Question 2:
How on earth do you get around the honesty issue? Isn’t it impossible to avoid team members just pocketing a green chip here, a black chip there…. And if you only recruit people that you really trust to begin with, then your pool of potential recruits is going to be very small?

Question 3:
What's the best recruitment approach?

Question 4:
If solo play is going well then should setting up a EMFH team be the next logical step to get more playing hours, faster journey into the long-run, and higher returns on the BR?

Question 1:
I did it for years playing at the same time with other team members, the casinos did not catch on that any of us were together. There was one exception, which was my own fault. PM me if you want more details. Surveillance will never put together two different players playing at different times. Its too much coincidence.

Question 2:
Either you trust your team members or you don't. Can they pocket money without you ever knowing? Sure, but if you feel you can trust them then sometimes you have to take a leap of faith in this world.

Question 3:
As for the best recruitment approach, I don't know if there is one per se but I would look to family and friends. Try to find players with like minded goals and personalities. The individuals must understand bet sizing and be comfortable with the variance. Especially on the losing side but they can't get too excited or cocky during the winning streaks either. Have new players join part time at first to see how they fit in.

Question 4:
Sure EMFH is a good next step but if things are going well maybe you don't need a team. Something to think about. But on the other hand a team helps reduce costs and expenses. It also takes out the loneliness of those long drives home from the casino and its nice to have someone to share your experiences with who actually understands both the ups and downs of this game.

 

[Pro21]

You will learn a lot more if you can join an existing team. About the only things you have in this business are your skills and your reputation. Someone who steals gets caught pretty quickly and their reputation is then toast.

 

[creeping panther]

Matt

EMFH team play - presumably this is where every team members plays individually and there are no guerillas or BPs.

Question 1:
Assume that team members play at the same casinos but at different days/times. Will it not look funny to have two separate players at different times using a vary similar betting ramp – bet ramps are not used a lot by the typical gamblers at my local venues so using a ramp stands out a little (particularly in heads-up play). Is this likely to raise suspicion with the surveillance team?

Question 2:
How on earth do you get around the honesty issue? Isn’t it impossible to avoid team members just pocketing a green chip here, a black chip there…. And if you only recruit people that you really trust to begin with, then your pool of potential recruits is going to be very small?

Question 3:
What's the best recruitment approach?

Question 4:
If solo play is going well then should setting up a EMFH team be the next logical step to get more playing hours, faster journey into the long-run, and higher returns on the BR?

Matt,

Something tells me that you may have an opportunity, very soon, to experiment with just such a scenario if you would like.:laugh:

CP

 

[callipygian]

if you only recruit people that you really trust to begin with, then your pool of potential recruits is going to be very small?

Yes, it will.

It's really no different from any other business arrangement that you make. Would you spam a public message board with "I've got $10,000 to invest in a restaurant startup and need trustworthy people to contact me"?

 

[matt21]

bump....

Generally speaking, is EMFH better suited to players with similarily sized bankrolls (say each player has $5k) and less suited where players have vastly different bankrolls (where one player has $5k and the other $50k)?

thanks in advance for any comments,
Matt

 

[moo321]

bump....

Generally speaking, is EMFH better suited to players with similarily sized bankrolls (say each player has $5k) and less suited where players have vastly different bankrolls (where one player has $5k and the other $50k)?

thanks in advance for any comments,
Matt

No, it would be fine for all of them. Just divide the win half and half. Half to investor's based on investment, and half to players based on time put in.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

EMFH team play - presumably this is where every team members plays individually and there are no guerillas or BPs.

Question 1:
Assume that team members play at the same casinos but at different days/times. Will it not look funny to have two separate players at different times using a vary similar betting ramp – bet ramps are not used a lot by the typical gamblers at my local venues so using a ramp stands out a little (particularly in heads-up play). Is this likely to raise suspicion with the surveillance team?

Question 2:
How on earth do you get around the honesty issue? Isn’t it impossible to avoid team members just pocketing a green chip here, a black chip there…. And if you only recruit people that you really trust to begin with, then your pool of potential recruits is going to be very small?

Question 3:
What's the best recruitment approach?

Question 4:
If solo play is going well then should setting up a EMFH team be the next logical step to get more playing hours, faster journey into the long-run, and higher returns on the BR?

The most important question is #4- why? You have to justify what you are getting out of this team experience that you will not get as a solo player. Solo play has a lot going for it.

If I were running a team, I would send all players out to backcount two-by two. You can easily backcount two tables that way, and you can get two hands in a good count if there are two spots available, even if they are not adjacent. Two guys standing alongside the table hanging out together doesn't look unnatural. And a player is never alone, so some honesty and security issues are ameliorated.

Who goes out with who can be switched up round-robin style, so it won't look like the same guys all the time, and it will be harder to set up betrayals where two guys can agree between themselves to cheat the rest of the team.

 

[Pro21]

I would focus my energy on the things you mentioned in other posts. Much bigger edges, much lower variance, less heat.

 

[Kasi]

No, it would be fine for all of them. Just divide the win half and half. Half to investor's based on investment, and half to players based on time put in.

Beautiful.

Can I be the $5K investor and you the $50K investor and we split bank after doubling investment while playing equal time with our 2 man team?

 

[itrack]

Liking the idea

If I were running a team, I would send all players out to backcount two-by two. You can easily backcount two tables that way, and you can get two hands in a good count if there are two spots available, even if they are not adjacent. Two guys standing alongside the table hanging out together doesn't look unnatural. And a player is never alone, so some honesty and security issues are ameliorated.

Who goes out with who can be switched up round-robin style, so it won't look like the same guys all the time, and it will be harder to set up betrayals where two guys can agree between themselves to cheat the rest of the team.

This would be very effective I think. Even though the issue of theft would still be there I guess, it would be a lot tougher.

 

[DownUnderWonder]

No, it would be fine for all of them. Just divide the win half and half. Half to investor's based on investment, and half to players based on time put in.

I have no experience with this so tell me if I am just plain wrong, but it would seem to me that the 50K investor would be getting a really crap deal out of this. A 10% bankroll increase would probably not even translate into 10% greater bets because of bet sizing etc, and they are taking on a hell of a lot of risk by letting someone bet with their bankroll. I would say that except under very rare situations this would be a terrible arrangement to enter into.

 

[SleightOfHand]

I have no experience with this so tell me if I am just plain wrong, but it would seem to me that the 50K investor would be getting a really crap deal out of this. A 10% bankroll increase would probably not even translate into 10% greater bets because of bet sizing etc, and they are taking on a hell of a lot of risk by letting someone bet with their bankroll. I would say that except under very rare situations this would be a terrible arrangement to enter into.

As stated in Grosjean's book, in the long run, the deal is fine. However, in the short run, the investors are getting a bad deal. Its like getting an optional 100% loss reinbursement for 50% of the wins (for the players). Either they must be responsible for some of the losses (which probably wont happen), they must receive a smaller % of the wins, or they get a fixed salary based on EV/CE. There may be other solutions, but I don't feel like thinking about it right now.

 

[Pro21]

On all the teams I was on that played this way there was some time commitment by the players, and in most cases all players had to have some investment in the bank. When a bank starts losing the players lose motivation to play, so we always had some agreement to play a certain number of hours.

It is really important to try to discuss as many possible scenarios up front because eventually there will be disagreements.
What if you lose for months and players have to get a job?
What if someone has bank money stolen from them?
What if a player overbets or underbets or overtips?
Are you going to reduce your unit size after losing x% of the bank?

We could start a whole section of this forum just on structuring teams.

 

[matt21]

thanks for all your comments on this thread!
this gives me some additional viewpoints to consider.

i will bump this thread once i have thought things through.

 

[Kasi]

I have no experience with this so tell me if I am just plain wrong, but it would seem to me that the 50K investor would be getting a really crap deal out of this. ...

And then some.

Apparently, one doesn't even need experience to know it's wrong.

It's as wrong as the day is long.

Exactly what I tried to say anyway lol.

Maybe moo will invite us in as $5K investors with moo as the $50K investor.

 

[1357111317]

That is not entirely true. Sure the investor is responsible for the losses but the goal is to play for many many N0s. If this were to happen the chances of a loss would be next to 0 and the investor would have just made 50% of the profits by sitting on his ass and having a fat wallet. With a big team that played frequently the return on that would beat the hell out of most other kinds of investments.

 

[Kasi]

That is not entirely true. Sure the investor is responsible for the losses but the goal is to play for many many N0s. If this were to happen the chances of a loss would be next to 0 and the investor would have just made 50% of the profits by sitting on his ass and having a fat wallet. With a big team that played frequently the return on that would beat the hell out of most other kinds of investments.

Well, if you were responding to what I said, I was responding to moo's assumption that half the profits or losses were based on %age of investment in team roll and the other 50% of profits or losses were based on time played.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying.

How about this - one $50K investor and 10 $5k investors. They double $100K roll eventually.

The $50K guy never actually plays. He gets 50% of $50K of the $100k winnings or $25K. The other 10 $5K guys get $2.5K each based on investment. The other 10 guys play equal time and get $5K each of the other $50K profit.

The $50K guy has a 50% ROI. The $5K guys have made 150% ROI on investment.

Would you rather be the $5K investor or the $50K investor?

Not to mention, they all go broke at some point and have each lost 100% of investment - their percent of loss is equal - but would you rather lose 100% of $50K or 100% of $5K?

I don't get why you say what you say.

 

[itrack]

I think he's saying its a good deal for the 50K investor, because he never did anything other than put money in. He could have a full time job while investing, or invest in 10 teams at once if he had sufficient funds. 100% return is pretty good for doing absolutely nothing other than just providing the cash IMO.
Too bad I dont think this is even what you were initially comenting on. The way I understood your first comment, you were getting at the fact that if they both played the same amount of time with a 5K and 50K investors/players , it seems like the 5K player would get a waaay better deal.

 

[zengrifter]

The proposed split is flawed - the division should take into account BOTH % of investment AND % of play hours. zg