EV Booster #22 "Partners on the double"...

zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#1
#1
... or pair-split - The key to this move is to cultivate a 'table alliance' with another player who will allow you to put up part of the additional doubledown or pair-split.

For example, WHENEVER I see a fellow player chunk out his last stack in frustration I immediately alert him/her that "If you get a good doubledown hand I'm putting up the other half" - "Partners on a doubledown" is what I proclaim as I place the other half of the money out "risk sharing!" I exclaim. Whenever I see someone place a large 'last shot' bet out I immediately announce that I'm "locked and louded" with the other part of the money and I demonstratively segregate the amount out... if I see a player hesitate on a double or place a sizeable 'double for less' I'm in, I'm there.

If the amount is larger than your reg topBet thats OK, the edge on 1/2doubles is
HIGH, even doubling below the index is OK, go for it. Splitting is another story, I haven't analysed entirely, but I would go split partners on 9s against 2-8, 10s against 2-8, etc. perhaps most 'aggressive splits' but certainly no 'defensive splits' (ie, 8s v 10, etc.) - if a ploppy macho boozed redneck or negro male gets 10s against 2-8 I announce, "if you got the balls to split those I'll put up half the dough!"

When players turn me down on the partner double, I say in mock-concern "OK, but I must warn you that its very unlucky to turn me down on a partner-double." If we win a partner-double I reinforce for the next time with a high-five, "yeah!pleasure doing business with you" or if we lose I reinforce with "see its good to share the risk... but you owe me another chance, good buddy!"

Drunk females are the best-easiest, but watch out - the cute ones (no matter how drunk) will want you to inturn go partners on 88vA, a tricky situation.

If a dealer intervenes to preempt the move I'm ususally oblivious and reassurringly instruct the "partner" to "here take my chips"

One time I went partners with a $300 matching partner-double and we lost - in the next instant the player turned to me casually and asked, "ok, now how much do I owe you?" zg
 
M

motheye

Member
#3
#3
So...

One time I went partners with a $300 matching partner-double and we lost - in the next instant the player turned to me casually and asked, "ok, now how much do I owe you?"

And you answered?

The preparation advice is really good, I have missed opportunities because I moved too slowly. I had not thought about cultivating playing partners and may give it a shot.

motheye
 
R

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
I have an Excel spread sheet up aht the card counters cafe that shows you the advantage available for these plays. Let me see if I can cut n paste it here:

SPLIT UP CARD ADVANT DOUBLE UP CARD ADVANT DOUBLE UP CARD ADVANT
A,A A 1.25 11 A 1.28 A,9 9 1.35
A,A 10 1.84 11 10 1.76 A,9 8 2.72
A,A 9 2.38 11 9 2.31 A,9 7 3.86
A,A 8 3.65 11 8 3.52 A,9 6 5.69
A,A 7 4.8 11 7 4.74 A,9 5 5.1
A,A 6 6.83 11 6 6.84 A,9 4 4.63
A,A 5 6.34 11 5 6.46 A,9 3 4.09
A,A 4 5.82 11 4 5.88 A,9 2 3.6
A,A 3 5.34 11 3 5.34
A,A 2 4.87 11 2 4.84 A,8 8 1.97

A,8 7 3.19
10,10 A 1.54 10 9 1.45 A,8 6 4.79
10,10 10 0.53 10 8 2.9 A,8 5 4.17
10,10 9 2.25 10 7 4.07 A,8 4 3.56
10,10 8 3.89 10 6 5.91 A,8 3 3
10,10 7 5.06 10 5 5.41 A,8 2 2.39
10,10 6 5.17 10 4 4.28
10,10 5 4.5 10 3 4.21 A,7 7 2.21
10,10 4 4.04 10 2 3.65 A,7 6 3.86
10,10 3 3.64 A,7 5 3.07
10,10 2 3.24 9 7 1.15 A,7 4 2.53

9 6 3.28 A,7 3 1.78
9,9 8 2.21 9 5 2.68 A,7 2 1.23
9,9 7 3.75 9 4 1.96
9,9 6 4.56 9 3 1.3 A,6 6 2.61
9,9 5 3.95 9 2 0.73 A,6 5 1.93
9,9 4 3.2 A,6 4 1.24
9,9 3 2.33 8 6 1.01 A,6 3 0.58
9,9 2 1.87 8 5 0.23

A,5 6 1.85
8,8 7 3.19 A,5 5 1.32
8,8 6 4.08 A,5 4 0.59
8,8 5 3.04
8,8 4 2.2 A,4 6 1.86
8,8 3 1.48 A,4 5 1.92
8,8 2 0.77 A,4 4 0.64

7,7 6 2.44 A,3 6 1.86
7,7 5 1.65 A,3 5 1.92
7,7 4 0.6 A,3 4 0.64

6,6 6 1.55 A,2 6 1.88
6,6 5 0.99 A,2 5 1.41

A,2 4 0.68
4,4 6 1.69
4,4 5 1.15

3,3 6 2.08
3,3 5 1.43
3,3 4 0.38

2,2 6 2.35
2,2 5 1.57
2,2 4 0.55
 
T

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
mucho complexity

I am assuming the right hand most column is your edge by accepting the bet.

This is a very interesting question. Suppose the person next to you is a high roller who has just put out a $300 bet. Your max bet is $150. The dealer has a T showing and the HR turns over a 6-5 and says he just wants to hit. Do you risk double your max bet for this? I wouldn't. But, if the dealer had a 4,5,6 showing, I would gladly join with the ploppy.

Thus, the risk/reward/kelley fraction has to be measured even in these cases. This is not an easy topic, and I appreciate your contribution of this data.

--Mayor
 
R

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
Re: mucho complexity

"I am assuming the right hand most column is your edge by accepting the bet.

This is a very interesting question. Suppose the person next to you is a high roller who has just put out a $300 bet. Your max bet is $150. The dealer has a T showing and the HR turns over a 6-5 and says he just wants to hit. Do you risk double your max bet for this? I wouldn't. But, if the dealer had a 4,5,6 showing, I would gladly join with the ploppy.

Thus, the risk/reward/kelley fraction has to be measured even in these cases. This is not an easy topic, and I appreciate your contribution of this data."

You are welcome. If the HR has $300 out s/he will normally be able to cover the double or split which would be another $300, not $150. But if they don't mind you jumping in with them, they are flat betting and never bet more per hand, then you are set. Much of this depends on your bankroll and doubling 11 vs 456 has a higher EV than 11 vs 10 up. You must be talking about a pitch game Mayor. In a pitch game you only turn your 5-6 up to double, otherwise you just go for a hit. If your roll is 10K betting $300 works from 8 on down with your average over 3.5%. You can't get an edge of 6% anywhere else on the felt. It is difficult to remember all of these play numbers but it is rather easy to remember the sweet spots from this list.

11 A 1.28
11 10 1.76
11 9 2.31
11 8 3.52
11 7 4.74
11 6 6.84
11 5 6.46
11 4 5.88
11 3 5.34
11 2 4.84
 
M

motheye

Member
#10
#10
doubling against non-stiff hand

Suppose the person next to you is a high roller who has just put out a $300 bet. Your max bet is $150. The dealer has a T showing and the HR turns over a 6-5 and says he just wants to hit. Do you risk double your max bet for this? I wouldn't. But, if the dealer had a 4,5,6 showing, I would gladly join with the ploppy.

I don't seek a ploppies double when the dealer has a non-stiff card up. Doubling 11 or ten against a stiff causes no problems, even if you get a twelve total after hit/double, the ploppie will want to stay. A little more of a problem on the ploppies nine, where a 2 on the 9 will give an 11, which you can't rehit after doubling. But ploppies know that doubling nine/stiff is usually is the right play, even if they don't do it (just bad luck if you draw the 2!).

But I am much more uncomfortable doubling against dealer high card (ie ten) as in your example. Grab the 2 with a double on the ploppies 11, and suddenly the ploppie will feel screwed as he now realizes he can't hit (this won't occur to him beforehand, or he wouldn't allow you to double, he originally thinks there is no difference!).

I'd rather take it out mercilessly on the casino than take a little EV away from a chump. I'm actually not to comfortable with Poker for this reason, but I suppose this will change with time and even more abuse heaped upon me at the gaming tables.

As for how much to risk in this situation? If you are going to seek out opportunities to exploit you probably should have an good idea of the expectation of the double or split (and possible split double). I use the back of Wong's PB, also BJA might be helpful in the cost of cover/misplays chapter (the charts are good to know in general).

If the opportunity will be infrequent, I wouldn't sweat it, just do it if it seems right.

motheye
 
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