Fastest way to learn counting?

[topher]

I am currently learning Zen. I started with KO about 2 months back and was able to count down a deck in 25 seconds but I kept learning more about BJ and moved on to Zen. I have never played BJ in a casino.

Currently I am counting down a deck using Zen in about 32 - 35 seconds. I plan on going to Vegas in mid-November and I'd really like to be able to sit at some tables and play Zen. From now until then, I plan on practicing my skills.

What is the fastest way to learn? Or is this 2.5 months or so not going to be enough to be able to play come November? I have Casino Verite which I use everyday (a few drills and a few shoes of playing). I have 6, 5.5, 5, 4.5, 4, etc. discard stacks set up to work on my deck estimation skills. Anything else I can do? I find that oftentimes while playing Casino Verite, I have to really pause for a few seconds when I have a 4+ card hand and I'm trying to add up my hand, determine the correct BS play, keep count, and possibly adjust my play based on the index.

 

[assume_R]

I am currently learning Zen. I started with KO about 2 months back and was able to count down a deck in 25 seconds but I kept learning more about BJ and moved on to Zen. I have never played BJ in a casino.

Currently I am counting down a deck using Zen in about 32 - 35 seconds. I plan on going to Vegas in mid-November and I'd really like to be able to sit at some tables and play Zen. From now until then, I plan on practicing my skills.

What is the fastest way to learn? Or is this 2.5 months or so not going to be enough to be able to play come November? I have Casino Verite which I use everyday (a few drills and a few shoes of playing). I have 6, 5.5, 5, 4.5, 4, etc. discard stacks set up to work on my deck estimation skills. Anything else I can do? I find that oftentimes while playing Casino Verite, I have to really pause for a few seconds when I have a 4+ card hand and I'm trying to add up my hand, determine the correct BS play, keep count, and possibly adjust my play based on the index.

You are doing very well, and 2.5 months with daily CV practice will be sufficient. You might want to buy some decks of cards to practice your deck estimation in real life, but other than that keep doing what you're doing.

 

[topher]

Hey thanks for the quick reply. Yes I have real-life decks. I went to Vegas for the Labor Day weekend and picked up 39 decks of used casino cards to set up my discard stacks from 6 decks all the way down to .5 decks in .5 deck increments.

Thanks for the encouraging words! I've been becoming obsessed with this I guess. :laugh:

 

[jmoney]

Where I live, I can stop by the casino on a Friday night and the $5 tables will be packed. There will be no open seats and you'll be able to stand back and count without getting any heat (or losing any money). I spent a lot of time going though decks and suck, but it didn't click until I was at an actual blackjack table.

Good luck!

 

[Dipsy]

I'm switching to zen from Hi Lo. What I do is i put a deck of card next to my computer, whenever I'm waiting something to load, I count the deck down once.

When you're bored with counting down cards 1 by 1 you can count them in pairs, practice some canceling-outs.

When you're bored counting down in pairs you can play the game yourself by dealing out 2 hands, one for the player and one for the dealer. Play your hand with BS, then draw dealer's hand like she normally would and keep the count while playing.

First it is uncomfortable jumping 2 numbers like -7 -5 -3 -1 1 3 5 7 and -8 -6 -4 -2 0 2 4 6 8. But after 2 or 3 days I got better with it.

I guess just put in the hours, theres no short cut. How you can learn without getting bored is the question.

Dipsy:grin::whip:

 

[aslan]

I am currently learning Zen. I started with KO about 2 months back and was able to count down a deck in 25 seconds but I kept learning more about BJ and moved on to Zen. I have never played BJ in a casino.

Currently I am counting down a deck using Zen in about 32 - 35 seconds. I plan on going to Vegas in mid-November and I'd really like to be able to sit at some tables and play Zen. From now until then, I plan on practicing my skills.

What is the fastest way to learn? Or is this 2.5 months or so not going to be enough to be able to play come November? I have Casino Verite which I use everyday (a few drills and a few shoes of playing). I have 6, 5.5, 5, 4.5, 4, etc. discard stacks set up to work on my deck estimation skills. Anything else I can do? I find that oftentimes while playing Casino Verite, I have to really pause for a few seconds when I have a 4+ card hand and I'm trying to add up my hand, determine the correct BS play, keep count, and possibly adjust my play based on the index.

Don't do what I did. I got stuck at poker, then jumped into blackjack my very first time counting in hopes of getting even. It was a baptism of fire to say the least. It all worked out. I won my money back, and I confronted my fears of counting, both at the same time. But I was anything but cool, calm and collected, as you can imagine!

The suggestion of back-counting for practice seems very appropriate. It should be an easy step from there to actually sitting at the table. Also, I would find the lowest min table available, preferably $3, $5 or $10.

 

[David Lane]

Learning Real Play

The answer to your question, in my opinion, is you practice until you can count in your sleep. Then do it some more. A level 1 count is sufficient as there are less mistakes than when using a higher level count. A higher level does no good if you make mistakes in your counting.
Once I mastered the counting skills, I played at a low level for longer than most counters would endure. It can be frustrating as the low level tables can be so crowded but that requires finding the right time to play...which is the least busiest and not when everybody wants to go. If you want to play the right times it is necessary to accept the life of a vampire. That is, play at 3:00a.m to 5:00a.m, depending on the day of the week but especially Sunday morning at the mentioned times.
It is a big difference winning at a table than counting at the kitchen table. Even after you master the count, there will be a period of learning to win. Experience is the best teacher of this point as it's somewhat difficult to put into words. But one of the benefits of low level play is to gain the courage to make the max bets and lose them. That is, you will not always win the max bets and experience is necessary to handle this feeling. A card counter must remain unemotional and cool as a cucumber and only experience will make this happen. Also, learning to play the max bet when you have too and not backing off due to a losing streak is experience best gained at a small game.
And of course, your total bankroll is the key to successful play and dealing with the variance. And lastly, always keep a journal and log in every aspect of your play, every time. There is no other way to determine your ROI or to learn from mistakes.
Good Counting,
David Lane

 

[David Lane]

How To Learn Without Boredom

Boredom is a fact of life and not always a bad thing. In my experience, when stages of my life were boring it was usually because all was well. Counting cards live in a casino, at first, is anything but boring. Initially, it is exhilarating, suspenseful and even downright frightening. Once the (consistent) wins start rolling in, the fear leaves and confidence comes. (It's important at that point not to become overly confident and slack on practicing).
As to as how not to be bored while practicing, it is important to take breaks and refresh yourself so you can concentrate and focus while practicing (as you must do when playing). Allowing boredom to settle in while practicing is dangerous and can be deadly. Our minds are truly powerful organs and will adjust to boredom rather quickly and began to drift. Before you know it, you are going through the motions without concentrating on what you are doing. This can lead to some bad habits and make you believe you are having a productive practice session when you are not.
I suggest practicing 45 minutes to an hour and then taking a break, which is a good time frame in real play. Boredom and fatigue in real play is costly in mistakes and camouflage. Every practice session pretend you are in real play and force yourself to take a break. That same time discipline is necessary in real play as well.
Good Counting,
David Lane

 

[aslan]

Contrary to constant warnings by well-meaning card counters, I have found that the game is very forgiving of occasional mistakes. I am neither advocating sloppy play nor am I ignoring the possibility of an error being very costly. In actual practice, a "mistake" often winds up in a win, or the "right" play often ends up in a loss. Whether you hit that 12 against a dealer 2 is not a critical matter, but continual lapses in good bs play is critical. Whether you mistakenly take insurance, the best of the index plays, at +2 instead of +3, is not critical, but repeatedly making this mistake or compounding this mistake with numerous "small" mistakes, can add up to a big loss of EV. This is why continual practice, "brushing up" exercises, are important.

The same goes for an occasional miss in the count. For instance, I have experienced times, sitting in the 5th or 6th seat, when the dealer's arm and hand cover up the player's bust card as he delivers it and then quickly picks it up again as the player busts. Sometimes I just ask what it was. At other times I feel asking would attract too much attention, for example, where there is already some heat or if I am playing in a very "sweaty" store. I will usually ignore the card, which is like treating it as an unseen burn card. But if I have reason to believe the bust card was very likely a ten, for example, the player's original hand was a 13, then I will count it as a ten, which is more conservative than treating it as a neutral nine. Will this cost me? That's a pretty iffy question. Usually it's de mininis.

Even if I enter a shoe which I did not have occasion to back count before I entered, but grabbed a seat that suddenly came open, I begin counting even if a half deck or deck has been dealt. First off, I can't help counting--it just happens. Second, sometimes you'd be surprised how the count may suddenly climb into plus territory. You must, however, imagine the cards you didn't see played as being added behind the cut card because they will never be dealt for your purposes, and they do constitute a part of deck estimation. Now, I do not always begin playing when I enter after the deal has begun. Sometimes I fumble around letting the deal pass me as I begin the count. If it looks promising, I may enter after a couple of rounds, or I will simply state that I will wait for the next shoe, or that I don't want to change the run of the cards.

 

[Gramazeka]

System

I am currently learning Zen. I started with KO about 2 months back and was able to count down a deck in 25 seconds but I kept learning more about BJ and moved on to Zen.

No good. The best system for shoes game is:
1. Hi Lo moved-
2. EBJ 2 moved-
3. Halves moved-
4. RAPC 71 (BC 99.9!!!)

 

[beating vegas]

No good. The best system for shoes game is:
1. Hi Lo moved-
2. EBJ 2 moved-
3. Halves moved-
4. RAPC 71 (BC 99.9!!!)

the key word is best. well it is true that the level 3 and 4 are more accurate
how ever i would consider practical meaning playing conditions there is a gain from a level 1 to 2 and most people can use level2s how ever i prefer a level 2 count its accurate and you have great level 2 counts rpc,felt and benfranklyn
and if your on zen thats a great count .

 

[aslan]

No good. The best system for shoes game is:
1. Hi Lo moved-
2. EBJ 2 moved-
3. Halves moved-
4. RAPC 71 (BC 99.9!!!)

Not "no good." If how much per hour is critical to your game, I too recommend greater than a 1 level count. But best is a term of art. For those who who have no trouble with 2 and higher counts, go for it! For now, I'll stick with the far easier KO count, with maybe a few TKO tweaks. It will also give me space to concentrate on other aspects of BJ AP. Just my thoughts.

 

[Gramazeka]

System

Hi lo indexs= indexs EBJ 2= indexs Halves.

 

[Syph]

Topher:

Most people who use multilevel counts are costing themselves money. They would be better served by simplifying their approach, speeding up their play, tweaking their bet ramp, improving their entry/departure points, and developing the ability to count multiple tables.

Where a simple solution exists, adding complexity is folly. I think it would be in your best interest to stick with KO.

JMHO,
Syph

 

[Gramazeka]

Systems

KO counter has bad eyes.

 

[Syph]

But sharper teeth.

Here's a post I like. Had I read this when I started, I would have saved myself considerable time and effort:

http://www.bj21.com/boards/free/free_board/index.cgi?read=162585

It's a great post for those new to counting. And even those not so new.

Best.
Syph

 

[aslan]

But sharper teeth.

Here's a post I like. Had I read this when I started, I would have saved myself considerable time and effort:

http://www.bj21.com/boards/free/free_board/index.cgi?read=162585

It's a great post for those new to counting. And even those not so new.

Best.
Syph

A great post for anyone.

Card counting would be a whole lot easier if you could disconnect the ego at will. You don't need a Sherman Tank to knock over some of the games I've played. A pea shooter would be sufficient. For other games, you might have observed me shaking my head and talking to myself as I left, "What was I thinking!?"

 

[sagefr0g]

Topher:

Most people who use multilevel counts are costing themselves money. They would be better served by simplifying their approach, speeding up their play, tweaking their bet ramp, improving their entry/departure points, and developing the ability to count multiple tables.

Where a simple solution exists, adding complexity is folly. I think it would be in your best interest to stick with KO.

JMHO,
Syph

i've been trying simplification to the extreme, just basically watching the cards as they are played out, using 'judgment' to determine the richness or poorness of high cards remaining to be dealt, then trying to apply what i know about betting to my bank 'if i was a perfect card counter', sorta thing. then using known statistics for the game and for a known 'perfect card counter' (computer sim to my bank, spread and game) and bailing play when i'm in some 'satisfactory' known range for that perfect card counter. i practice this tact a lot on my computer. results, for what they are worth (probably zilch), but as it's been going so far pretty much a break even sorta thing.
sometimes for whatever reason i'll actually properly count and bet using hi/lo.
so but yeah, simplification seems a grand goal, cutting the amount of work applied while achieving reasonable success, sorta thing, yeah.
still working on it here, lol.

 

[topher]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Another thread with some newbie info: http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=19290

It seems that most people endorse the "simpler is better" approach to card counting. I am sticking with Zen, possibly to my detriment? I can count down a deck in 25 - 30 seconds now with it. Thanks to everyone for all the info in here.

Books I've read: BBIBJ, Blackjack Bluebook II, Blackjack for Blood, Knock-out BJ

I just ordered: Professional Blackjack and Blackjack Attack

 

[aslan]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Another thread with some newbie info: http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=19290

It seems that most people endorse the "simpler is better" approach to card counting. I am sticking with Zen, possibly to my detriment? I can count down a deck in 25 - 30 seconds now with it. Thanks to everyone for all the info in here.

Books I've read: BBIBJ, Blackjack Bluebook II, Blackjack for Blood, Knock-out BJ

I just ordered: Professional Blackjack and Blackjack Attack

I just ordered the Theory of Blackjack, based on KewlJason's recommendation.