First BJ Tournament Ever - A Couple of Questions

[LovinItAll]

(Posted on BJT too, but much more user activity here - hope that's okay)

Hey Everyone,

I'm playing my first BJ tournament in the Station Casinos' event. Next weekend (5/14) is the qualifier, with the main event the following weekend. I've been reading tournament strategies, looking over final hands from older tourneys, etc. The rules don't state how many decks will be dealt out of a shoe, but I presume six.

My B.S. is excellent. I'll mention counting in my questions, which follow the structure/rules (sorry so long - not sure what info the community needs to answer my questions):

===========================================
The structure/rules for the satellite:

- Start with T-3000, one rebuy ($100) allowed during the first qualifying round only

- Min. Bet = $100, No Max

- Rounds are 20 hands

- There are four rounds during the qualifier:

Rounds 1-2: Top three players from each table advance to the next round

Round 3: Winner of table advances to the final qualifying round

Round 4: Winner of table advances to the Main Event

Game Rules: HS17, No Surrender, BJ pays 2:1
=================================================

1. Based on your experience, how many players would you guess will shove immediately knowing they will be able to rebuy once? What do you think of shoving early?

2. I'm reading all of the articles I can find on bet sizing relative to the button/other stack sizes. Based on the rule set above, are there any unusual rules that might impact 'common' strategies? (No max bet, for example).

3. A simple count like Hi-Lo is visceral for me. I know that I'll be focusing on stacks/bets, but I think I can accurately count, too. It seems that the small edge counting may not have a significant impact over 20 hands. If I'm in a position needing to catch up and last to bet in the middle of a round, should I take a shot if the count has swung to something like TC +5 or 6, for example? Not sure I'll be able to resist the impulse if I'm behind, so if it's a really bad move, someone talk me out of it!

4. Aside from continuing to prepare (and any references to good strategy on other sites/books, if allowed on this forum, would be appreciated), is there any advice experienced players here would like to offer?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Best regards,

LIA

 

[tthree]

Counting is not very useful in tournament play. You are playing against the players not the house. Go to blackjack tournaments.com. Ken the website master is arguably the best blackjack tournament player in world. You will find it invaluable.

 

[tthree]

I like the tournament structure. The information on what you need to do to advance is always at your table. I hate the hybrid format.

 

[LovinItAll]

Counting is not very useful in tournament play. You are playing against the players not the house. Go to blackjack tournaments.com. Ken the website master is arguably the best blackjack tournament player in world. You will find it invaluable.

I appreciate your opinion. As I mentioned, I've also posted my questions there and have been reading Ken's articles. I think in one he says something to the effect of (I paraphrase), "Because of the play vs. players instead of the house, counting is less important, but if you can maintain the count as well as structure bets properly, it may be worthwhile."

The real question is this: If I am counting and find myself well behind - but not so far that I have to take a big shot in the middle of a round - what do people here think about taking the big shot if the count is really favorable and I'm last to act?

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

Edit: One other thing: I completely understand the difference between player v. player, player v. house, but the outcome of the hand is still dependant on the dealer's hand, so can counting be discounted completely? It's a question, not a statement.

 

[tthree]

The position you mentioned is the key. The count is just gravy. I would count but base your moves on strategy first count second.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Use the count for index plays. I have read that some players, while at a table with several counters, will bet inverse to them.

 

[tthree]

Did you look at some of the play breakdown from historic tournaments?

 

[LovinItAll]

The position you mentioned is the key. The count is just gravy. I would count but base your moves on strategy first count second.

Thank you very much. That is exactly what I anticipated doing, but I wanted to run it by some players with experience. Seems like there may be a situation when near (but not quite) deperation rears its ugly head. If that's the case, I was thinking that the count may be a factor if I'm in the right position in that hand.

I didn't realize that the tournament game was as different as it is, so I'm doing all I can to prepare. It makes sense, of course, just never gave it any thought before now.

I really appreciate everyone's answers.

 

[LovinItAll]

Use the count for index plays. I have read that some players, while at a table with several counters, will bet inverse to them.

Another great comment, and I'd considered how index plays may actually be quite important when making decisions. No heat for 'strange moves', either (I don't think).

 

[tthree]

Late in the tournament rounds its all about opening a window of opportunity. You may have to do some insane things to open a small window. But a small window is better than no window.

 

[LovinItAll]

Did you look at some of the play breakdown from historic tournaments?

Yes, I looked at all of the final series of hands and elimination hands on the site, though it stops at 2006 (may be all that's necessary - I get the idea).

There were a couple of plays by the leader in one of the events that seemed counter-intuitive to me (he won anyway, so who am I to criticize?!), but I'm going to look again and try to break it down.

Thanks.....

 

[zengrifter]

I appreciate your opinion. As I mentioned, I've also posted my questions there and have been reading Ken's articles. I think in one he says something to the effect of (I paraphrase), "Because of the play vs. players instead of the house, counting is less important, but if you can maintain the count as well as structure bets properly, it may be worthwhile."

It is NOT worthwhile at all.
If you don't know rudimentary tourney strategy, just go for bust. zg

 

[LovinItAll]

It is NOT worthwhile at all.
If you don't know rudimentary tourney strategy, just go for bust. zg

Thank you for your opinion as well. I think I have 'rudimentary tournament strategy' down pretty well. As far as counting goes, it seems there are varying opinions regarding its value. Since it's my first tournament, and considering its diminished importance, I'm less concerned with counting than I am with another question I had:

- Based on your experience, how frequently to players shove early in a single, first round rebuy tournament?

Thanks....

 

[tthree]

Do you understand the hi, middle, and low for the final hand? You want to be able to take as much of these as possible. Dont forget how many move on to the next round at each round.

In a hybrid tournament your question about plungers would demand an answer but it depends who ends up at your table with this format. Watch how the plungers play if they win. The ones that keep betting big are their own worst enemy. The cagy ones who bet smart after a lead are the ones that you will probably have to catch. Sometimes the aggressive bettor gets on a run though.

With 2:1 blackjack tracking aces might be a good idea even if you use an ace reckoned count. Timing a bet to hit a big blackjack payoff really helps but you must remember you are playing the other players. Ive seen a lot of good counters blow it because they were trying to hard to make counting their edge. I think Wong says he never counts in a blackjack tournament. It can definitely help with playing your hand to its greatest potential. But sometimes you have to play your hand stupid to open that window.

When you need to catch someone you either need to have the opposite decision on your hands or a different size bet out. You dont get to choose which unless you have position. The cagy player will take away bet size if he/she has position. Anticipate the play/bet order for that last hand. That figures heavily into your strategy down the stretch.

 

[LovinItAll]

Do you understand the hi, middle, and low for the final hand?

Yes, I understand the high, middle, and low. I had already been thinking along similar lines re: bet sizing based on stack sizes, so it made perfectly good sense.

Ive seen a lot of good counters blow it because they were trying to hard to make counting their edge.

Clearly it's a betting game played with cards rather than a card game where one bets, very much - in my mind - like many aspects of NLHE.

I guess many tournaments pay 3:2 for naturals? Paying 2:1 in this one helps (I guess) when factoring in opponents potential doubles, as a separate calculation won't be necessary.

Anticipate the play/bet order for that last hand. That figures heavily into your strategy down the stretch.

I've read over and again about making sure one understands the last round's betting order and its significance during the last several hands. I'll remember to calculate it when we sit down and recalc when players bust out.

When you need to catch someone you either need to have the opposite decision on your hands or a different size bet out. You dont get to choose which unless you have position. The cagy player will take away bet size if he/she has position.

Another great point.


I really appreciate the comments. Thank you.

 

[creeping panther]

Tourney

I have played in alot of tourneys, and I never rebuy, and I have made it far in on the big money tourneys,,and I counted, and shuffle tracked, and watched players chips, and side counted aces,,,and it sure as hell paid off in my experiences. I doubt there was a player at my table who was not shakin in their boots to be up against me. Why would I say that, only because I had been told that by many skilled opposing players.

So I strongly suggest you do the same.

CP

 

[LovinItAll]

I have played in alot of tourneys, and I never rebuy, and I have made it far in on the big money tourneys,,and I counted, and shuffle tracked, and watched players chips, and side counted aces,,,and it sure as hell paid off in my experiences. I doubt there was a player at my table who was not shakin in their boots to be up against me. Why would I say that, only because I had been told that by many skilled opposing players.

So I strongly suggest you do the same.

CP

Thanks for the reply. I have a couple of questions for you:

I used to play a lot of tournament poker and would occassionally play in rebuy events. I'm loathe to rebuy, but poker is a little different in its structure. In these BJ tournaments, it's 20 hands and on to the next round. With that said (and understanding that my situation will be table dependant), how do you counter the following?

Suppose there are a couple of donks at your table. The shove on Hand #1, double up, do the same on Hand #2, beat the odds and are both successful (not saying that's a good strategy, just asking a "what if" question - there is a better than 20% chance at least one will succeed). They're now sitting on T-8000 with 18 hands left to play. Throw in that they have some semblance of good sense and begin taking the low (or betting as conservatively as they can). I know they can be caught sometimes, but I'm not sure counting comes close enough to an edge to overcome your stack which, if you go in to the tournament thinking 'no rebuy...period', is probably going to be about 4x less than their stacks on Hand #3. Remember that in this tournament, three players from each table advance to Round 2, so anyone who accumulates a very large stack early probably ins't going to mix it up with another big stack - they'll both try to coast, right?

If you say you're a great player, I have no reason to doubt you. How do you handle an opponent with a huge lead once it gets to the middle of the round (hands 12-15, for example, if you haven't made inroads into their stack)? You wouldn't be tempted to shove with a decent count knowing that you could rebuy?

Unlimited rebuys are a completely different animal and aren't relevant here.

I'm feeling pretty good about how I want to approach this tournament, but as long as I'm receiving replies, I'd like to answer them playing devil's advocate if that's okay.

Thanks again,

LIA

 

[tthree]

I havent played in many tournaments. I traveled with my dad who was a high roller and played in as many big money blackjack tournaments as he could. He took 1st in many of them. He also liked the craps and baccarat tournaments. He never had much success in the craps tournaments even though he loved the game but had very good success in the baccarat tournaments even though he never played the game. I always watched the tournament play and was asked to critique the various things that happened. I learned a lot from those discussions.

It sounds like the Panther is the someone to listen to so I wont say much. In round one and two 3 move on. If two run away from the pack try to concentrate on third place. My dad repeatedly made the mistake of trying to make his move based on the count rather than strategy. HE probably would have been better off not counting at least in those situations. His extreme success at taking 1st or second in big tournaments could be used to argue the other side of the coin.

Your situation isnt desperation until 3rd place looks like it is getting away from you in rounds 1 and 2. Thats what I meant about always keep in mind how many advance in each round. Listen to what the panther says and hopefully he will answer the obvious next question of chasing down 3 players. Position on any one of the three players would probably be available on most hands. That would allow some amount of patience.

 

[creeping panther]

Loving

First, I never said I was great,,,but rather very dangerous. With my AP Skillz I could swing another player, players, lightining fast.

Clearly when you are about to lose a, move on position, near the end of the round you have to act out of desperation, a situation you never want to be in,,,you also never want a pissing contest in the last 2 hands, you need patience and skillz and a complete immersion,,zoning in that game. Know the other players if possible and their play, habits. Knowing how to bet once in the lead is important. But you must use the AP skills you have to your advantage,,because no one on that table may be as good as you,,probably not even close in AP skills.

I do have good friends that are great players, and they have huge losing streaks that has them ready to give up the tourney game, so luck and getting the cards play a large part,,but AP SKILLZ negate that to a great degree.

Enjoy the tourney, they are high drama with great adrenalin rushes:grin:

CP

 

[creeping panther]

TThree

I havent played in many tournaments. I traveled with my dad who was a high roller and played in as many big money blackjack tournaments as he could. He took 1st in many of them. He also liked the craps and baccarat tournaments. He never had much success in the craps tournaments even though he loved the game but had very good success in the baccarat tournaments even though he never played the game. I always watched the tournament play and was asked to critique the various things that happened. I learned a lot from those discussions.

It sounds like the Panther is the someone to listen to so I wont say much. In round one and two 3 move on. If two run away from the pack try to concentrate on third place. My dad repeatedly made the mistake of trying to make his move based on the count rather than strategy. HE probably would have been better off not counting at least in those situations. His extreme success at taking 1st or second in big tournaments could be used to argue the other side of the coin.

Your situation isnt desperation until 3rd place looks like it is getting away from you in rounds 1 and 2. Thats what I meant about always keep in mind how many advance in each round. Listen to what the panther says and hopefully he will answer the obvious next question of chasing down 3 players. Position on any one of the three players would probably be available on most hands. That would allow some amount of patience.

I enjoy your posting,,they are usually very wise and I am happy you are here.

I also enjoy your stories about your father,,wonder if I may know him?

CP