Four Winds report

[creeping panther]

This is a report on conditions at Four Winds Casino Michigan. This is based on a Saturday afternoon and evening visit.

This is a newer casino Owned by the Pokagon Band of Potawatomi. It has a excellent hotel, expensive, and a large casino floor with a HL room and offers all the normal casino games.

The food, that is the Buffett, is excellent but pricey, dinner rates are $22 during week and $28 weekends plus a 6% "resort fee tax" on anything you buy while there. I found this tax a disgusting money grab by this tribe and surely did not endear me to them. There are 4 other restaurants on the grounds, including deli for burgers etc,,,and expensive.

I understand that Four Winds are very generous with comps and when you first get a players card, on that day, any play you give will be reimbursed up to $400 of your loses, probably in e credits, but still a nice gesture.

The professionalism of the staff was OK, just OK, on this day the dealers and pit were wearing sports jerseys which I thought was unprofessional and amateur, something, sadly, you may often see at Native casinos.

The poker room is large with a good half of it having electronic tables with no dealers,,,so much for casinos claims of offering good jobs to the local population,,,cut out the dealer as often as possible to fatten already obese profits.

The casino has self serve soda and coffee stations offering good coffee and real cream as well as coke products, nice.

All BJ tables use asm's, main floor 7 spot tables, HL room 6 spot tables. The HL room is nice but not as exclusive as I would like, but they do offer free food to those playing the HL games, tables and slots. The HL room has 6d BJ with a HE of .37. The HL room has Bacc. in an anter room, very private, but no single 0 Roulette as some in the area do and no DD as some in the area do. On this evening there was 1 $25 to $1000 game and 3 $50 to $2,500 and 3 $100 to $5000 games. I rate the BJ in the HL room as playable.

BJ on the main floor can be found at .58 HE and there is a Lucky Lucky side bet offered on some tables. The limits on this evening were $10 to $300, $15 to $300. I rate some BJ on the main floor as playable.

Parking is very easy in a nice attached ramp and the casino is in a very safe area.

CP

 

[shark]

excellent report, I have played there recently and agree with the information reported here

 

[handymn]

The most important stuff..

You forgot the part where they will rudely trespass, attempt to backroom to sign documents and follow you off the property in their security vehicles once you are made as any sort of counter. Even with no real evaluation as to your threat level to them or your competency. This has to be the sweatiest place in the Midwest if you reach their threshold. Maybe they are OK with red chippers or something. Don't know for sure as I haven't been tossed there myself but know several others that have. This is a place that needs some bad press for their policies.

They are managed by a company called Lakes Entertainment ((Dead link: http://www.lakesenteratinment.com)). It is run by a guy you may have seen playing poker on TV named Lyle Berman. He's basically a poker AP so I guess he figures that anyone who attempts advantage play at the casinos he manages must be a world caliber player like himself and dealt a swift blow. I don't know, I just think its somewhat ironic. These people or not "Michigan Midwest" sort of people. I have family connections in the area and they definitely bring an adversarial to the customer, Vegas sort of attitude.

Lakes Entertainment is a publicly traded company, so next time they throw someone out of their room for raising their bets when they think aces will come, I'd love to see Lakes itself served with lawsuit and try and plead tribal sovereignty from innkeeper's laws.

I'm not saying APs should stay away. That's what they want. But just realize there may be more than one way to get some money off these guys if they get out of line while thinking their protected by the sovereignty thing. If you play there, be aware that they rely heavily on RFID. So if you already know ways around this it will probably work there too.

Personally, I have no particular beef with them. I just can't stand this management style and this information comes courtesy of that.

 

[creeping panther]

Handy

Thanks for the input, , yes I am aware of the RFID chips, and I was also informed of them by the cage when they cashed out my rather large win in a rather short time.

One must always figure that this can happen wherever one plays at and plan accordingly, sad that it has to be this way,,,,but while on the Rez. anything can happen.

While you have given second hand reports I would like to hear some first hand reports on what you describe,,,because I had no heat,, while there were players around me betting $500 or more per hand and fluctuating.

Also, I believe lakes has a not more than 10 year managment contract, when over they will be gone like the blood suckers they are.

CP

 

[bigplayer]

Ironic

You forgot the part where they will rudely trespass, attempt to backroom to sign documents and follow you off the property in their security vehicles once you are made as any sort of counter. Even with no real evaluation as to your threat level to them or your competency. This has to be the sweatiest place in the Midwest if you reach their threshold. Maybe they are OK with red chippers or something. Don't know for sure as I haven't been tossed there myself but know several others that have. This is a place that needs some bad press for their policies.

They are managed by a company called Lakes Entertainment ((Dead link: http://www.lakesenteratinment.com)). It is run by a guy you may have seen playing poker on TV named Lyle Berman. He's basically a poker AP so I guess he figures that anyone who attempts advantage play at the casinos he manages must be a world caliber player like himself and dealt a swift blow. I don't know, I just think its somewhat ironic. These people or not "Michigan Midwest" sort of people. I have family connections in the area and they definitely bring an adversarial to the customer, Vegas sort of attitude.

Lakes Entertainment is a publicly traded company, so next time they throw someone out of their room for raising their bets when they think aces will come, I'd love to see Lakes itself served with lawsuit and try and plead tribal sovereignty from innkeeper's laws.

I'm not saying APs should stay away. That's what they want. But just realize there may be more than one way to get some money off these guys if they get out of line while thinking their protected by the sovereignty thing. If you play there, be aware that they rely heavily on RFID. So if you already know ways around this it will probably work there too.

Personally, I have no particular beef with them. I just can't stand this management style and this information comes courtesy of that.

The nastiness and sweat of Four Winds is ironic considering that Lakes Gaming is what is left of the old Grand Casinos company which used to be among the most progressive and tolerant of gaming companies with easy comps, good rules, and relaxed friendly pit staff. They protected their games with very mediocre penetration and then let anyone play until they proved over a very long time that they could beat the casino.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

If that was a successful way to run casinos, Grand Casinos would be in Harrah's spot right now, no?

 

[bigplayer]

If that was a successful way to run casinos, Grand Casinos would be in Harrah's spot right now, no?

Park Place Entertainment threw a boatload of money at Lyle Berman to sell the Grand Casinos to them which he did. I don't see that as being a bad thing. He still has the management contracts on several indian casinos and he owns the World Poker Tour. I'll add that the sweat at Four Winds isn't doing them any good as the recent gaming numbers have been much poorer than their competitors.

 

[moo321]

If that was a successful way to run casinos, Grand Casinos would be in Harrah's spot right now, no?

No, harrah's offers bad pen, bad rules, and they sweat the games.

 

[CheeseheadAP]

Nasty Backoff

Happened to me about 6 months after they opened. Shift manager was all red faced and screaming at me because of my 1X25 to 2X200 spread. Going to 2 hands is what did it, I had been there a dozen times earlier in the high limit room spreading one hand 25-300. Nastiest backoff of my 15 year career, refused to be backroomed, in retrospect maybe I should have for a possible lawsuit. There is no doubt in my mind that if I would have shown any resistance things would have gotten physical. I have never seen a casino employee so angry in my entire life.

 

[creeping panther]

Hmmm

Happened to me about 6 months after they opened. Shift manager was all red faced and screaming at me because of my 1X25 to 2X200 spread. Going to 2 hands is what did it, I had been there a dozen times earlier in the high limit room spreading one hand 25-300. Nastiest backoff of my 15 year career, refused to be backroomed, in retrospect maybe I should have for a possible lawsuit. There is no doubt in my mind that if I would have shown any resistance things would have gotten physical. I have never seen a casino employee so angry in my entire life.

And just think,,,,,all because you are a skilled player playing by the rules!:flame:

In these instances what needs to be done is retribution, in a host of different ways.

CP

 

[flyingwind]

Happened to me about 6 months after they opened. Shift manager was all red faced and screaming at me because of my 1X25 to 2X200 spread. Going to 2 hands is what did it, I had been there a dozen times earlier in the high limit room spreading one hand 25-300. Nastiest backoff of my 15 year career, refused to be backroomed, in retrospect maybe I should have for a possible lawsuit. There is no doubt in my mind that if I would have shown any resistance things would have gotten physical. I have never seen a casino employee so angry in my entire life.

Did you lose your chips (not allowed to cash out?)

Have you ever gone back?

 

[21gunsalute]

Things seem to be going downhill in a hurry. Almost all the games on the main floor are now 8 decks (at least during the day) and one dealer was cutting off 3 and 1/2 decks! Video Poker Jacks or Better were all 8/5 and 9/5 games. I couldn't find even one 9/6 machine on site. Comps are still terrible for BJ players. The few pennies they give you don't carry over from one day to the next. The high limit room was $50 minimum with at least 2 decks cut off. I see absolutely no reason to ever go back to this hellhole.

 

[flyingwind]

Things seem to be going downhill in a hurry. Almost all the games on the main floor are now 8 decks (at least during the day) and one dealer was cutting off 3 and 1/2 decks! Video Poker Jacks or Better were all 8/5 and 9/5 games. I couldn't find even one 9/6 machine on site. Comps are still terrible for BJ players. The few pennies they give you don't carry over from one day to the next. The high limit room was $50 minimum with at least 2 decks cut off. I see absolutely no reason to ever go back to this hellhole.

Anyone know why it's getting so bad?

 

[creeping panther]

4 Winds

I found the HL room very playable and the main floor playable.

They will watch HL players close if they get suspicious,,,a few days ago they were staring down 2 black males playing big and well skilled,, heads up.

They comp very well, slot players,,very well. BJ never gets comped well just about everywhere.

CP

 

[SecurityRisk]

Things seem to be going downhill in a hurry. Almost all the games on the main floor are now 8 decks (at least during the day) and one dealer was cutting off 3 and 1/2 decks! Video Poker Jacks or Better were all 8/5 and 9/5 games. I couldn't find even one 9/6 machine on site. Comps are still terrible for BJ players. The few pennies they give you don't carry over from one day to the next. The high limit room was $50 minimum with at least 2 decks cut off. I see absolutely no reason to ever go back to this hellhole.

The "Lucky Lucky" blackjack games on the main floor are still six decks. And you can ignore the "Lucky Lucky" side bet.

 

[apex]

I understand that Four Winds are very generous with comps and when you first get a players card, on that day, any play you give will be reimbursed up to $400 of your loses, probably in e credits, but still a nice gesture.CP

After reading this I looked into this offer. I think this is a great thing to take advatage of if you can. As CP said, Four Winds will reimburse up to $400 of your slot losses on the day you get your casino card. You must be a new club member. In about 4 weeks you will get a coupon in the mail in the ammount of your losses. You then must return and play through the rebate.

I decided the best way to take advantage of this offer was to bet big. You want high variance. I ended up trying 2 $200 pulls. Lost both, but I still think this is the highest EV play I have ever made in a casino. I now have to wait until I get the coupon, go back, and grind back my $400. I heard they have a $1 99.5% payout Jacks or better game in the HL room. So my expected value is to get back $398 of the initial $400 if I play that game perfectly. I will post an update after I get the rebate and try to redeem it to let you all know if it is ligit.

 

[Machinist]

After reading this I looked into this offer. I think this is a great thing to take advatage of if you can. As CP said, Four Winds will reimburse up to $400 of your slot losses on the day you get your casino card. You must be a new club member. In about 4 weeks you will get a coupon in the mail in the ammount of your losses. You then must return and play through the rebate.

I decided the best way to take advantage of this offer was to bet big. You want high variance. I ended up trying 2 $200 pulls. Lost both, but I still think this is the highest EV play I have ever made in a casino. I now have to wait until I get the coupon, go back, and grind back my $400. I heard they have a $1 99.5% payout Jacks or better game in the HL room. So my expected value is to get back $398 of the initial $400 if I play that game perfectly. I will post an update after I get the rebate and try to redeem it to let you all know if it is ligit.

Its very legit APEX..very.....

Machinist

 

[creeping panther]

After reading this I looked into this offer. I think this is a great thing to take advatage of if you can. As CP said, Four Winds will reimburse up to $400 of your slot losses on the day you get your casino card. You must be a new club member. In about 4 weeks you will get a coupon in the mail in the ammount of your losses. You then must return and play through the rebate.

I decided the best way to take advantage of this offer was to bet big. You want high variance. I ended up trying 2 $200 pulls. Lost both, but I still think this is the highest EV play I have ever made in a casino. I now have to wait until I get the coupon, go back, and grind back my $400. I heard they have a $1 99.5% payout Jacks or better game in the HL room. So my expected value is to get back $398 of the initial $400 if I play that game perfectly. I will post an update after I get the rebate and try to redeem it to let you all know if it is ligit.

Apex,

Actually my wife received $525 in e credits. I still have to do it, was going today but a big storm made us cancel our reservations.





CP

 

[apex]

Apex,

Actually my wife received $525 in e credits. CP

I just completed the freeplay in this great offer. There is no catch. In fact, my friend and I also got $525 in free play. Our mailed rebate had the promised $400 which had to be used within about a month, $125 extra free play that could only be used a certain day, and a free hotel stay. Anyone who lives within several hours of the casino should give this a try.

Step 1: Sign up for a new Four Winds card at guest services.
Step 2: Go to high stakes room. Find a slot that will allow you to bet $100 (or more) per pull.
Step 3: Insert card. Make sure it has you in the system. Insert $400. Play until you lose or hit BIG. My friend and I argued about how big you need to actually hit to stop. How long would you play if you knew the worst you could do would be to break even? We decided for us on this promo the amount was $2000.
Step 4: If you lose, redeem your free play when your offer comes in the mail (one thing I will mention is they will only mail the offer to the address on your driver's license.) We chose a lower variance approach to get our money back. After $1050 in free play of Jacks or Better we cashed out $970.

Great offer. Do it!

 

[Homeschool]

Good luck getting to use your free rooms....the place is always packed

Homeschool