Have you ever heard about these kind of rules?

#1
I went to a casino named majestic this weekend. it is supposedly the biggest one in Panama so i had some high expectations. In the beggining i was really disapointed. They had alot of bj tables but most of them that were open were majestic 21 which i figured would be some form of spanish 21 they had the usual bonuses on 7-7-7, 6-7-8 and 5,6,7- card 21:s. when I came they only had one table open with my 2 dollar table min. and they were cutting away 2 decks or more. I know that for a BS player it doesn't really matter, but for some reason that is still a minus to me. Well i decided to try it anyways but had no luck and left after one shoe since i didn't really feel good about the game.
I watched my gf play the slots for awhile then decided to go down and try to backcount or just watch the BJ tables.
while trying to backcount a tabel I sometimes glanced at the Majestic 21 table. I then noticed a rule on the table that said that insurrence on 10,J,Q or K paid 10 to 1.
I know is a loser bet unless you count but the thing that i found interesting was that it said 10 aswell. From what i have heard spanish 21 and its variations usually don't have any 10:s. i watched the game thinking it must be some kind of mistake. but i saw both 10,J,Q and K. They also payed the normal 3 to 2 on BJ. Confused i asked th dealer what the difference between this game and the normal bj games was. he then told me that the only difference was the special rules and that they used 4 decks instead of 6.
This ofcourse ment that even without the special rules this game was better than the normal BJ games.

besides the insurence on 10:s offer and the special pays on 7-7-7 and so on they also offered a -13+ bet. You couldn't double on 3 cards or surrender after double like you can in some spanish 21 games but still.

Aside frome these rules it was like normal BJ

4D,H17, DAS, no peek(but only lose originalbet on dealer BJ), early surrender except against dealer ace and you can resplit to 4 hands, even aces (although you can't hit them)I actually saw that happen twice. lucky bastards.
they were dealing to fast and i didn't have enough concentration to count the cards, but i was able to win some money playing bs.
Now what do you all think about this game? to me it seems like a really great game but I would like to know. also is there something beyond the usual that i need to do to adjust my BS?
 

MGP

Well-Known Member
#2
blackjacksquirrel said:
They had alot of bj tables but most of them that were open were majestic 21 which i figured would be some form of spanish 21 they had the usual bonuses on 7-7-7, 6-7-8 and 5,6,7- card 21:s...

They also payed the normal 3 to 2 on BJ.

...the special pays on 7-7-7...

You couldn't double on 3 cards or surrender after double like you can in some spanish 21 games but still.

Aside frome these rules it was like normal BJ

4D,H17, DAS, no peek(but only lose originalbet on dealer BJ), early surrender except against dealer ace and you can resplit to 4 hands, even aces
What exactly were the bonuses - only 777 or the others as well? How much were they paying and did they automatically win and get removed or did they play through with the bonus added or did the hand have to win to get the bonus?

Were there suited bonuses and if so how much?

I tried finding the exact rules online but couldn't
 
#3
I planed to ask for a copy of the exact rules but forgot. I remember some of it though.
There was a suited payoffs for 7-7-7 which payed 20. suited 6-7-8 also payed quite alotone but I can't remeber exactly how much. unsuited 777 and 678 also payed a bonus and also 5,6,7 card 21.
678 unsuited payed 3-1 i think and it was paid out directly. the hand then continued and the player got payed again for winning the hand.

+- bets payed 1 to 1 and bets on 13 10 to 1. insurence on 10:s payed 10 to 1 aswell.

sorry i can't tell you more. I will find out the exact bonuses next time i go there
don't know when that will be though.:(
 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#4
blackjacksquirrel said:
Aside frome these rules it was like normal BJ

4D,H17, DAS, no peek(but only lose originalbet on dealer BJ), early surrender except against dealer ace and you can resplit to 4 hands, even aces (although you can't hit them)I actually saw that happen twice. lucky bastards.
they were dealing to fast and i didn't have enough concentration to count the cards, but i was able to win some money playing bs.
Now what do you all think about this game? to me it seems like a really great game but I would like to know. also is there something beyond the usual that i need to do to adjust my BS?
This is an excellent game to play against and if the pen is good you should be able to smoke this game.
I estimate the house edge to be 0.16%. That's like the good old single deck games. Counters would have at least a 1.5% edge and more against these rules.
 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#6
blackjacksquirrel said:
My deckestimation is not that good but I thinkthey cut around 1,5 decks. They cut even more in the 6d game
That's really lousy pen. That's 62.5% if you play it again make sure you use a large spread because there won't be many opportunities to raise your bet so take advantage of the high counts when you can.
 
#7
SystemsTrader said:
That's really lousy pen. That's 62.5% if you play it again make sure you use a large spread because there won't be many opportunities to raise your bet so take advantage of the high counts when you can.
like I say I am really bad at deckestimation and this I know this I tend to exagerate alittlebit. next time i will count the number of cards dealt to be sure.
 

MGP

Well-Known Member
#8
Something's amiss...

My understanding of the rules you're giving below. I borrowed the 678/777/5-7card 21 bonuses from Spanish 21.

Even just using a bonus of 1.5:1 for unsuited 678 and 2:1 for suited 777, the EV for the player using a TD strat is +0.16% (the 2C strat only adds 0.001% so I'm not going to bother writing out the exceptions). If you change the 678 unsuited to 3:1 and make it just 4:1 for suited and change the 777 suited bonus to 20:1 then you have an EV of +0.56%. So if these rules are correct then you have a +ev off the top.

The rules I used to get the +0.16% EV:

4D
OBO
H17
BJ 3:2
DOA
DAS
SMA
SPL3
ES10
5 Card 21 3:2 automatic win
6 Card 21 2:1 automatic win
7 or more Card 21 3:1 automatic win
678 unsuited 3:2 hand continues
678 suited 2:1 hand continues
777 unsuited 3:2 hand continues
777 suited 2:1 hand continues
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#9
Since insurance is normally only offered on dealer ace, offering it on dealer ten... it might still be a -EV bet, but potentiably countable, must like regular insurance?
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
#10
EasyRhino said:
Since insurance is normally only offered on dealer ace, offering it on dealer ten... it might still be a -EV bet, but potentiably countable, must like regular insurance?
I highly doublt insurance on a ten showing is beatable no matter what count you use. It would be such a bad bet to take that even the casinos feel bad about offering it!
 
#11
wow I knew the rules were good but i didn't think they were that good. but like you say there must be something more to it. but i honestly don't know what. I thought I asked for every possible rule that could give the player a bigger disadvantage. My geuss is that the casino make its money in this game through the insurence and +-13 bets. I think there are very few peopel who know BS here and they but alot of money on these loser bets.
it is really to bad it is so far from where I live:( .
Do casinos usually have some kind of paper where the exact rules and variations of the games are written? would it rise any suspicion if I was to ask for one of them next time I go there?
 

kender

Active Member
#12
MGP said:
the EV for the player using a TD strat is +0.16% (the 2C strat only adds 0.001% so I'm not going to bother writing out the exceptions).
quick question. What is TD strategy and 2C strategy. Are there any other acronyms I may not know if I can't immediately get these 2? Thanks, this should just make my general reading about blackjack smoother and easier.
 

MGP

Well-Known Member
#13
kender said:
quick question. What is TD strategy and 2C strategy. Are there any other acronyms I may not know if I can't immediately get these 2? Thanks, this should just make my general reading about blackjack smoother and easier.
TD is Total Dependent where every hand that is played based solely on the total, the upcard and whether the hand is hard or soft. Pairs are either split or played based on their total.

2C is 2-Card dependent and all 2 card hands are played based on their specific composition, but all 3-card or more hands are played based solely on their total as above for the TD strategy.
 

SystemsTrader

Well-Known Member
#15
blackjacksquirrel said:
Do casinos usually have some kind of paper where the exact rules and variations of the games are written? would it rise any suspicion if I was to ask for one of them next time I go there?
Yes they do and when you ask just say you are learning the game and don't want to embarass yourself by jumping in without knowing the rules.
 
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