HC'ing Practice

[Southpaw]

Playing in an unofficial Texas Hold'em game (no money involved) can be decent practice with this. Many times I was able to make out the players' HC's (including suit) as they were dealt, as well as board cards because they were dealing them out from the start (unlike most games).

The upshot of all this is that it was cheap practice. Of course, I don't play poker and don't know the strategy well, nor would I know how to apply this new found information 100% correctly.

Spaw

 

[Midwestern]

SPaw,
what do you mean "unofficial" ?

Either way, I think that HC could be a big advantage in texas holdem... if you had few opponents to keep track of. Sometimes the dealer throws cards really high and you can catch a glimpse of a facecard... but when it comes down to it, that player may still fold his Q6o preflop and that information is now useless to you other than the fact that hitting a pair of Q's or 6's is now less probable.

This may be a very hard strategy to employ effectively at a 9person table.

 

[Southpaw]

SPaw,
what do you mean "unofficial" ?

Either way, I think that HC could be a big advantage in texas holdem... if you had few opponents to keep track of. Sometimes the dealer throws cards really high and you can catch a glimpse of a facecard... but when it comes down to it, that player may still fold his Q6o preflop and that information is now useless to you other than the fact that hitting a pair of Q's or 6's is now less probable.

This may be a very hard strategy to employ effectively at a 9person table.

Unofficial as in with friends. Yeah, there probably is a decent advantage to be had when you can spot cards in Texas Hold'em.

Spaw

 

[moo321]

You would probably have a 20%+ advantage against any player if you knew one hole card. Say the dealer flashes to the 1 seat, you'd have a big advantage over him.

I've run into this with players who didn't protect their cards. I told them they were flashing their cards, and they still didn't protect them, so if I noticed, I noticed.

However, I think holecarding in the poker room is pretty unethical. Beating the house because of an error is one thing (say, they didn't rake properly), but beating players is another thing entirely.

 

[Jack_Black]

playing in an "Official" casino game with "official" chips that count as real money in front of "official" dealer is the best practice. you bet table minimum, collect comps, scout for flashers, get in good practice as well as the added motivation from playing with "official" money to get better quicker. not to mention, you would most likely know what to do with the official HC info if you got a glimpse.

 

[Midwestern]

However, I think holecarding in the poker room is pretty unethical. Beating the house because of an error is one thing (say, they didn't rake properly), but beating players is another thing entirely.

i might have to disagree with you on this one moo. when it comes to poker, it's "smoke em if you got em".

Say you make a royal flush in a live game and you face an amateur player who minimum bets to you on ther river. Is it unethical not to raise him for all your chips because you know you have him beat? of course not, you are there to extract value out of the situation.

I think whatever kind of information you can glean from the table (be it in tells, betting patterns, or even HC info) is fair-game. It' up to the player to play properly.

Now if you think that someone is seeing your own Hole cards, that's just a matter of asking the dealer to not throw them so high.

 

[Midwestern]

As a follow up, i want to make it very clear that i do NOT condone cheating. I believe poker should be a completely fair game.

But i believe that NOT using advantageous information when you have it is contradictory to the reason for even playing poker in the first place.

ideal poker scenario: Seasoned poker pro sits down with a table of billionaire first-time players. The Pro should have no remorse for wiping these guys out fairly and if he does, he should consider a different profession.

 

[NightStalker]

That's not poker

Unofficial as in with friends. Yeah, there probably is a decent advantage to be had when you can spot cards in Texas Hold'em.

Spaw

It's a setup-cheating and probably shameful one.. I've warned players and dealers several times at poker table to protect their cards. I prefer to improve my skills than exploiting others' weakness. If you are skilled and bankrolled, you don't need these tactics.

 

[moo321]

i might have to disagree with you on this one moo. when it comes to poker, it's "smoke em if you got em".

Say you make a royal flush in a live game and you face an amateur player who minimum bets to you on ther river. Is it unethical not to raise him for all your chips because you know you have him beat? of course not, you are there to extract value out of the situation.

I think whatever kind of information you can glean from the table (be it in tells, betting patterns, or even HC info) is fair-game. It' up to the player to play properly.

Now if you think that someone is seeing your own Hole cards, that's just a matter of asking the dealer to not throw them so high.

You're making a comparison between beating someone with skill, and beating them because you have information you aren't supposed to have.

It's the difference between a good investor beating the market because he knows how to invest, and insider trading.

 

[tthree]

for the drama

Since this thread got more into poker ethics than hole carding heres a question Ive pondered since I did it by mistake. I was playing texas holdem in AC. I was getting really tired. I threw my hand in after another player showed with the intention of mucking my hand. I looked down the table at the other players hand and realized either the dealer miscalled her hand or I didnt hear her write. I think it was the latter. I flipped my cards over saying, "what drama" showing I had the winning hand. Nobody complained about me winning the pot. Should I have won this hand or should I have lost because I mucked?

I saw Phil Ivey muck a winning flush not realizing he had a flush in the main event of the world series of poker.

 

[Midwestern]

You're making a comparison between beating someone with skill, and beating them because you have information you aren't supposed to have.

It's the difference between a good investor beating the market because he knows how to invest, and insider trading.

Moo you make an excellent point. The comparison to insider trading is a compelling argument that i have no good argument to counter with. Someone ACTIVELY trying to figure out another player's hole cards would be unfairly taking advantage of a situation that would be detrimental to other participants in the game (i.e. the same reason insider trading is illegal).

there is definitely a gray line between cheating and seeing someone's hole cards in poker. I guess i was thinking about it earlier in the same context as Holecarding in Blackjack ... and the argument for that is that it's not unethical at all to beat the casinos at their own game if they don't protect it well enough. Extend that logic to poker and ..... you get the idea.

 

[Southpaw]

It's a setup-cheating and probably shameful one.. I've warned players and dealers several times at poker table to protect their cards. I prefer to improve my skills than exploiting others' weakness. If you are skilled and bankrolled, you don't need these tactics.

Nightstalker, in my OP, I clearly indicated that I was playing in an unofficial game with no money involved. In fact, it was with friends that I was playing with.

So, to sum this up, I have no remorse for taking their ego, albeit with cheating tactics if this even is, indeed, cheating, because I was not taking their money.

Spaw

 

[moo321]

there is definitely a gray line between cheating and seeing someone's hole cards in poker. I guess i was thinking about it earlier in the same context as Holecarding in Blackjack ... and the argument for that is that it's not unethical at all to beat the casinos at their own game if they don't protect it well enough. Extend that logic to poker and ..... you get the idea.

Even hole-carding a casino game isn't a clear ethical decision. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but it's easy to see how someone could say that.

But I don't think there's any defense for hole-carding poker. You're not playing against the house.

 

[zengrifter]

Even hole-carding a casino game isn't a clear ethical decision. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but it's easy to see how someone could say that.

Well, is it ethical to take unfair (but legal) advantage of a casino?

See - I have a friend ...​

 

[Jack_Black]

Even hole-carding a casino game isn't a clear ethical decision. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily wrong, but it's easy to see how someone could say that.
.

I remember talking to you in person about this. I still don't get it. a casino could change their games to CSMs so one couldn't take advantage of them through counting, yet you have no ethical problem with counting. A casino could have a tough shuffle, yet you have no problem with shuffle tracking. A casino could have miscalculated their promo, yet I will assume you have no problem with that. but once a casino has a weakness in their HC delivery, you suddenly have a problem?

 

[moo321]

I remember talking to you in person about this. I still don't get it. a casino could change their games to CSMs so one couldn't take advantage of them through counting, yet you have no ethical problem with counting. A casino could have a tough shuffle, yet you have no problem with shuffle tracking. A casino could have miscalculated their promo, yet I will assume you have no problem with that. but once a casino has a weakness in their HC delivery, you suddenly have a problem?

Let's distinguish here: for one thing, in the poker room, you're playing against players, not the house. That changes everything, and if you are reading holecards in the poker room, you're a jerk.

On house-banked games, I think it's fair game. However, I personally choose not to hole-card, not because it's wrong per se, but because the Bible commands Christians not to take advantage of people, and I think it's so close to the ethical line that I chose not to do it.

"Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain" 1 Timothy 3:8

"For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain" Titus 1:7

However, I wouldn't tell someone who doesn't share my view of spirituality that hole-carding a casino game is wrong. Just like I wouldn't necessarily tell someone who doesn't consider themself a follower of Christ to follow certain sexual ethics.

Also, I wouldn't expect a Hindu to tell me not to eat meat. Or a Baptist to tell me not to drink alcohol in moderation, or gamble in moderation.

And I wouldn't tell you not to play hole cards. I just chose not to do it.

 

[sagefr0g]

...... However, I personally choose not to hole-card, not because it's wrong per se, but because the Bible commands Christians not to take advantage of people, and I think it's so close to the ethical line that I chose not to do it.

....

just curious moo, by the same token some players have no qualms about accepting over-payments by dealers. so my question is if a dealer were to over pay you, would you correct the dealer?
errhh i mean i'm assuming you are averse about such stuff because it's a matter of taking advantage of 'challenged' individual dealers, sorta thing.
i suppose such dealers could face disciplinary actions partly as a result of being taken advantage of by AP's.

 

[moo321]

just curious moo, by the same token some players have no qualms about accepting over-payments by dealers. so my question is if a dealer were to over pay you, would you correct the dealer?
errhh i mean i'm assuming you are averse about such stuff because it's a matter of taking advantage of 'challenged' individual dealers, sorta thing.
i suppose such dealers could face disciplinary actions partly as a result of being taken advantage of by AP's.

I do generally accept mispay by dealers, but I do not induce errors, or play with a dealer because I know them to mispay.

 

[sagefr0g]

I do generally accept mispay by dealers, but I do not induce errors, or play with a dealer because I know them to mispay.

bear with me if you will, moo..... i'm not trying to box you in or anything, just i'm pondering over these issues myself, and not quite sure where i stand, lol, excepting that i know i want to hold a position of 'Strength and Honor' like the stealthy won's tag line says.

not meaning to be argumentative here my friend, errhh, lol, i've accepted miss pays as well, errhh haven't actually sought them out, either. but anyway, reflecting upon that, errhh well i dunno, would one do that in a grocery store, a seven eleven, a gas station (lol) or any other business establishment? heaven forbid, lol, what would we do if say we gave our mother $5 asking for change and she handed us back $6.50? how about even more heaven forbid, say we pay off investors and short pay them, knowingly and they accept, lol?:eyepatch::whip:
don't get me wrong here moo, lol, heck man we've broke bread together so you probably know i trust you.
just blabbing, here man.
so ok, i'm thinking from where you posted the Bible verses, it's pretty much the sordid part where you see hc'ing problematic? the kind of predatory singling out of some hapless challenged individual and going in for the kill sorta thing, where as counting, well, erhh while it's the same money source, and it's wise to predator-ally single out the juiciest games, but that's farther removed from say any given individuals responsibility, sorta thing? (ie. who ever created blackjack is probably currently pushing up daisies, lol) .......
edit: like ok, here's a question, let's just say you are sitting at a game, and it just happens, you see the dealers down card, would you in that instance use that information?
just curious your thoughts here or anyone else s.

 

[moo321]

bear with me if you will, moo..... i'm not trying to box you in or anything, just i'm pondering over these issues myself, and not quite sure where i stand, lol, excepting that i know i want to hold a position of 'Strength and Honor' like the stealthy won's tag line says.

not meaning to be argumentative here my friend, errhh, lol, i've accepted miss pays as well, errhh haven't actually sought them out, either. but anyway, reflecting upon that, errhh well i dunno, would one do that in a grocery store, a seven eleven, a gas station (lol) or any other business establishment? heaven forbid, lol, what would we do if say we gave our mother $5 asking for change and she handed us back $6.50? how about even more heaven forbid, say we pay off investors and short pay them, knowingly and they accept, lol?:eyepatch::whip:
don't get me wrong here moo, lol, heck man we've broke bread together so you probably know i trust you.
just blabbing, here man.
so ok, i'm thinking from where you posted the Bible verses, it's pretty much the sordid part where you see hc'ing problematic? the kind of predatory singling out of some hapless challenged individual and going in for the kill sorta thing, where as counting, well, erhh while it's the same money source, and it's wise to predator-ally single out the juiciest games, but that's farther removed from say any given individuals responsibility, sorta thing? (ie. who ever created blackjack is probably currently pushing up daisies, lol) .......
edit: like ok, here's a question, let's just say you are sitting at a game, and it just happens, you see the dealers down card, would you in that instance use that information?
just curious your thoughts here or anyone else s.

Yeah, I wouldn't accept an overpay from the grocery store, or any other business. I did accept an overpay at the cage once, but it felt icky and I doubt I'd do it again.

Basically, holecarding is more predatory than counting, as far as I see it. Instead of using your brain to beat the game, you're just looking for errors.

For example, in investing you can buy undervalued stocks and hold them for a long time and beat the market. OR you can engage in insider trading, or manipulate stocks by naked short selling, or even do legal things like talk about a stock on TV to run it up, and then sell it.

None if this is really cut and dried: we (Christians) are commanded by God to love our neighbors, and hole-carding just doesn't seem to fit that bill for me.