Hole Card and Tip Handling

Friendo

Friendo

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
A question occurred to me the other day during a mediocre shoe, when two things I have always wondered about occurred in quick succession:

  • The flamboyant dealer flipped the hole card over to her left with the upcard
  • She gathered her tips and banged them loudly on the edge of the chip tray before dumping them in her tip box

I have never seen a dealer who flips the hole card to his left (my right). Is this a matter of tradition, or is there a reason connected with the security of the game?

EDIT: Grrr! Should read "who flips the hole card to his right" - now the question actually makes sense.

As to the banging of the tips on the edge of the rack, I'm less certain that this is universal, but I haven't noticed a dealer who just grabs the tips and places them with the other tips.

Anyone here have some explanations?
 
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Dyepaintball12

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Friendo said:
A question occurred to me the other day during a mediocre shoe, when two things I have always wondered about occurred in quick succession:

  • The flamboyant dealer flipped the hole card over to her left with the upcard
  • She gathered her tips and banged them loudly on the edge of the chip tray before dumping them in her tip box


As to the banging of the tips on the edge of the rack, I'm less certain that this is universal, but I haven't noticed a dealer who just grabs the tips and places them with the other tips.

Anyone here have some explanations?
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They bang the chips on the edge of the rack and place them with their other tips all the time in my experience.
 
T

Tree

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
Dyepaintball12 said:
They bang the chips on the edge of the rack and place them with their other tips all the time in my experience.
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Same. I think it's so the eye/pit know that they aren't just snagging from the tray.
 
S

Sucker

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
Friendo said:
[*]The flamboyant dealer flipped the hole card over to her left with the upcard
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Where in the world have you ever seen a dealer who flips the hole card to her RIGHT????

Friendo said:
[*]She gathered her tips and banged them loudly on the edge of the chip tray before dumping them in her tip box
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That's a universal game protection move. It's to let the boss know that she's not stealing from the house.
 
Friendo

Friendo

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
Sucker said:
Where in the world have you ever seen a dealer who flips the hole card to her RIGHT????
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I screwed that one up. Should have been the other way around.

Still curious if this is some sort of unwritten rule of blackjack. Because, yes, I have never seen a dealer flip to her right.
 
Southpaw

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
Friendo said:
I screwed that one up. Should have been the other way around.

Still curious if this is some sort of unwritten rule of blackjack. Because, yes, I have never seen a dealer flip to her right.
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All I can say is that the consistency of how dealers turn their hole-card makes counting easier, although I'm not suggesting that casinos ought to abandon the practice, for casinos should not even concern themselves with the threat of counters.

Spaw
 
P

paddywhack

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
I know of one particular dealer that will at times, not always, just grab the hole card and flip it over. Whether it be left or right of the up card doesn't matter. Gotta be real careful there.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
If the dealer isn't flipping the same card over every time, leave.

It is possible that they are selectively flipping the upcard, and I doubt most people are good enough to detect it.
 
M

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
moo321 said:
It is possible that they are selectively flipping the upcard, and I doubt most people are good enough to detect it.
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And if you catch a dealer who is consistently flipping the "better" of both cards - you might have an advantage over the house.
 
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T

tthree

Banned
#10
#10
Turning the tables

MangoJ said:
And if you catch a dealer who is consistently flipping the higher card of both cards - you might have an advantage over the house.
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That is an interesting observation. Their attempt to cheat you gives you more information that may be exploitable.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
MangoJ said:
And if you catch a dealer who is consistently flipping the "better" of both cards - you might have an advantage over the house.
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No, it doesn't give you an edge, even if you know it's happening. It's in Exhibit's book.
 
M

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
moo321 said:
No, it doesn't give you an edge, even if you know it's happening. It's in Exhibit's book.
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I did some thinking about that (didn't got the book yet). I find those kinds of rule-change-scenarios quite entertaining....

Ok, giving the dealer a strategy option (by selecting which card to show, neglecting player cards) the house must gain an edge on perfect dealer play.
With perfect play I mean the best dealer selection strategy under the condition, that the very selection strategy is known to the player (which will make basic player strategy invalid, and hence a different strategy will be optimal based on upcard).

But what if the dealer selection is not an official rule, selecting cards secretly (meaning the dealer is cheating), and optimizes his selection decision under the condition that the player will follow basic strategy ? In the global sense (above) the dealer is not playing optimal.
If a smart player observed the card selection process, and concludes that the selection rules are optimal only against an basic-strategy-player (of the original game), will he gain an edge by using an adaptive strategy ?
It may or may not be, as the dealer is playing sub-optimal.


At least for simple rules (infinite deck, infinite resplits) this should be simple enough...
 
2

21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
paddywhack said:
I know of one particular dealer that will at times, not always, just grab the hole card and flip it over. Whether it be left or right of the up card doesn't matter. Gotta be real careful there.
Click to expand...
MangoJ said:
I did some thinking about that (didn't got the book yet). I find those kinds of rule-change-scenarios quite entertaining....

Ok, giving the dealer a strategy option (by selecting which card to show, neglecting player cards) the house must gain an edge on perfect dealer play.
With perfect play I mean the best dealer selection strategy under the condition, that the very selection strategy is known to the player (which will make basic player strategy invalid, and hence a different strategy will be optimal based on upcard).

But what if the dealer selection is not an official rule, selecting cards secretly (meaning the dealer is cheating), and optimizes his selection decision under the condition that the player will follow basic strategy ? In the global sense (above) the dealer is not playing optimal.
If a smart player observed the card selection process, and concludes that the selection rules are optimal only against an basic-strategy-player (of the original game), will he gain an edge by using an adaptive strategy ?
It may or may not be, as the dealer is playing sub-optimal.


At least for simple rules (infinite deck, infinite resplits) this should be simple enough...
Click to expand...
I don't think you quite understand the situation if it's the same dealer I'm thinking of. After the hand has been played out this dealer will take his left hand and manually flip the hole card over. Sometimes he'll flip it on spot and sometimes he'll flip so as to trade spots with his other card. He's very quick, and if you look away for even a millisecond it can get very confusing, especially if you can't remember what his original upcard was.
 
M

MangoJ

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
I finished with calculation of a selective upcard dealer (i.e. the dealer peeks at both cards, and selects one to flip as upcard). 5% house edge increase against a player playing basic strategy (dealer optimizes his strategy against that type of player). With adapted strategy that is reduced to 2% house edge increase.

Maybe one could promote that kind of game and pay 2:1 for blackjack ^^
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
21gunsalute said:
I don't think you quite understand the situation if it's the same dealer I'm thinking of. After the hand has been played out this dealer will take his left hand and manually flip the hole card over. Sometimes he'll flip it on spot and sometimes he'll flip so as to trade spots with his other card. He's very quick, and if you look away for even a millisecond it can get very confusing, especially if you can't remember what his original upcard was.
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Oh, well he could be switching his hole card, then, too.
 
P

paddywhack

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
moo321 said:
Oh, well he could be switching his hole card, then, too.
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No switching of cards or blatant cheating. He just grabs the hole card and flips it over wherever he wants, sometimes left of the up card, sometime right. Can get confusing at times.....
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#18
#18
paddywhack said:
No switching of cards or blatant cheating. He just grabs the hole card and flips it over wherever he wants, sometimes left of the up card, sometime right. Can get confusing at times.....
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You don't think he's doing anything. He's probably not. But if he were cheating, he would deal in this fashion to conceal it. I'd be careful.
 
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