How much bankroll would one need to make $30K a year?

[blackjack avenger]

An Important ? for the OP

Does the OP want 30k with near certainty or a theoretical 30k in a year? For 30k with near certainty the bank requirements get rather high.:joker::whip:

I think there is not enough hrs to play in one year to have a certain 30k.

good cards

 

[gamblingghost]

Does the OP want 30k with near certainty or a theoretical 30k in a year? For 30k with near certainty the bank requirements get rather high.:joker::whip:

I think there is not enough hrs to play in one year to have a certain 30k.

good cards

The op did not specify. But for the sake of discussion, let's say he wants a better than 95% chance of getting 30k in one year. What is the BR requirement there?

 

[kewljason]

Well, what bothers me here is that the original poster was shooting for 30k per year and for three years you averaged only 10. So for you to have made the op's request you would have had to bet a max bet of $300!!! 200 of those is exactly $60,000!! Exactly what 21gunsalute suggested. And being the conservative player that I am, I would want 400 of em so I would need a total of $120,000 BR to make 30k a year!! Man, it just gets worser and worser. And that doesn't include expenses!!:sad:

Ok, well if that is what you need for your comfort level then so be it. I am not here to advise anyone to do anything that they are not comfortable with. I am just saying there is playing conservative, RoR-wise and then there is the crazyness that you are speaking of....$120K BR to make 30 grand.

For perspective I am starting my 8th year of supporting myself from blackjack, and have yet to have a year that I didn't make for the year more than my BR was at the start of that year and again I play pretty conservatively. And I am speaking of varying BR through the years from less than 5 grand to upper 5 figures that I play to now. Many players think they should turn their BR over 2 or 3 times in a year. With my conservative approach and limited abilities, I am happy (for the time being) turning it over once.

If you have $120 grand available and are only making 30 K playing blackjack, you should consider using those funds on something else that will yeild a higher return.

 

[blackjack avenger]

A Journey to Win $1 Starts With 500 hours

The op did not specify. But for the sake of discussion, let's say he wants a better than 95% chance of getting 30k in one year. What is the BR requirement there?

According to Schlesinger:
With a 6 deck game after 500 hours of play you have a 94% chance of being ahead $1.

With flat betting:
A game that has a NO of 200 hrs would take about 1800 hrs for EV to equal 3 SD (NO * 9). That is to just be equal, not ahead by 30k.

So it appears to be; dare I say, near impossible for a guaranteed 30k in a year.

Expectation not guaranteed:
With a SCORE/EV of $20 an hour it would take 1500 hours flat betting to achieve 30k in expectation.

:joker::whip:

good cards

 

[pit15]

I won ~30k last year starting with a 10k bankroll (which I added 40k to throughout the year as I became more confident) and played with an ror no higher then 5%

But I had a stronger play then card counting. Though I didn't play the whole year (started in may), was lazy, had a lot of bad habits (not gambling wise, stuff like sleeping through an entire shift I was supposed to play), and skipped a month of play for no good reason, and lost places to play because of stupid amateur mistakes that resulted in back offs.

Point is, you don't need a ton of money to make good money, but you do need a good amount. You also don't have to work super hard, but obviously how much you work is going to reflect in your bottom line

 

[BJgenius007]

Just curious. Thanks.

I can give you an indirect answer. You will need at least $25,000 (preferably $50,000) to play $25 minimal table safe without ruining your bankroll and earn about $30 to $40 a hour. So you need to play 1,000 hours a year to make $30,000. It will be a part time job (8 hours per day x 125 days a year).

If you have only $10,000, You need to play $10 minimal table for 2,500 hours (full time job, 8 hours a day for 312 days a year) to make $30,000.

You can't play $5 minimal table because you will need to play 16 hours almost every day to make $30,000 annually. And note that you need to spread correctly to meet your goal. You spread $10 to $160 on 6D table and $10 to $80 on 2D table assuming you have $10,000 bankroll.

 

[BJgenius007]

I can give you an indirect answer. You will need at least $25,000 (preferably $50,000) to play $25 minimal table safe without ruining your bankroll and earn about $30 to $40 a hour. So you need to play 1,000 hours a year to make $30,000. It will be a part time job (8 hours per day x 125 days a year).

If you have only $10,000, You need to play $10 minimal table for 2,500 hours (full time job, 8 hours a day for 312 days a year) to make $30,000.

You can't play $5 minimal table because you will need to play 16 hours almost every day to make $30,000 annually. And note that you need to spread correctly to meet your goal. You spread $10 to $160 on 6D table and $10 to $80 on 2D table assuming you have $10,000 bankroll.

And don't try this at casino but at your home's computer. Play 250,000 hands against computer to see if you can make $30,000.

250,000 hands = 2,500 casino hours

because you probably will play 100 hands per hour at casino. But at home, you can play 5 times faster. So it will only take 500 hours at home for the test drive. To make you finish the test drive faster, you can also choose to play 100 hours (50,000 hands) against the computer. If you can make $6,000 in the end, you are ready to go.

 

[pit15]

You're not getting 100 hands an hour unless you're spreading black in the high limit room.

If the table allows midshoe entry it'll be slowed down a lot. Even nms tables on the main floor will be slowed down a good amount. Just from people trying to sit down and being told they can't. That still wastes time.

Based on the OP's post he's going to be grinding at low/mid stakes. That involves a lot of wonging and dealing with crowded tables full of slow players. You have to adjust hands per hour accordingly

 

[gamblingghost]

Ok, well if that is what you need for your comfort level then so be it. I am not here to advise anyone to do anything that they are not comfortable with. I am just saying there is playing conservative, RoR-wise and then there is the crazyness that you are speaking of....$120K BR to make 30 grand.

For perspective I am starting my 8th year of supporting myself from blackjack, and have yet to have a year that I didn't make for the year more than my BR was at the start of that year and again I play pretty conservatively. And I am speaking of varying BR through the years from less than 5 grand to upper 5 figures that I play to now. Many players think they should turn their BR over 2 or 3 times in a year. With my conservative approach and limited abilities, I am happy (for the time being) turning it over once.

If you have $120 grand available and are only making 30 K playing blackjack, you should consider using those funds on something else that will yeild a higher return.

Crazy conservative? When you lower your max bet due to loss what in essence are you doing? Increasing the number of max bets ya got of course.
Now, if we were to use your success record to answer the OP question. I think when you say you double your BR each year your saying you win better than 200 max bets. You've done it for seven years now, congratulations! So,
200 times $150 is 30k. So, 30k is required for the BR given this level of success. If I insist on 60k that gives me 200 full 150 dollar bets before I
need to lower my max bet. I breathe easier. So, for me, 21gunsalute had the exact correct answer.

 

[pit15]

I would strongly discourage you from trying to AP at low stakes for a living. A $30K / year job isn't that good to begin with, now you're talking about a $30k a year job where you're not even guaranteed to get paid.

Not to mention the offers are a great perk for play at higher limits. This month I'm going to end up with about $2000 in free stuff off casinos. That's between match plays, slot dollars, and giveaways. (and that's 2000 CASH. I discounted freebies to what I can actually sell them for). That's on top of the 14 days that I dont pay for food/hotel. Takes a lot of pressure off to get in ridiculous hours when I get 2 grand before I even play. Of course I have to keep playing to keep the offers coming. This is what makes AP worth it. If I had to stay in a shitty motel, pay for my own food, and on top of that barely eek out a living I would kill myself before subjecting myself to that.

Bottom line. Start out as a low roller to get comfortable (I still bet small in games until I'm confident I can play error free), then ramp up the stakes quickly. If you can't afford it, then don't do it.

 

[gamblingghost]

I would strongly discourage you from trying to AP at low stakes for a living. A $30K / year job isn't that good to begin with, now you're talking about a $30k a year job where you're not even guaranteed to get paid.

Not to mention the offers are a great perk for play at higher limits. This month I'm going to end up with about $2000 in free stuff off casinos. That's between match plays, slot dollars, and giveaways. (and that's 2000 CASH. I discounted freebies to what I can actually sell them for). That's on top of the 14 days that I dont pay for food/hotel. Takes a lot of pressure off to get in ridiculous hours when I get 2 grand before I even play. Of course I have to keep playing to keep the offers coming. This is what makes AP worth it. If I had to stay in a shitty motel, pay for my own food, and on top of that barely eek out a living I would kill myself before subjecting myself to that.

Bottom line. Start out as a low roller to get comfortable (I still bet small in games until I'm confident I can play error free), then ramp up the stakes quickly. If you can't afford it, then don't do it.

The OP never said this would be his living. I assumed it was only part time. So making an extra 30k a year playing on the weekends is bad?

 

[aslan]

The OP never said this would be his living. I assumed it was only part time. So making an extra 30k a year playing on the weekends is bad?

I think you'll have to raise your betting unit if you're going to limit yourself to being a weekend warrior. You can't play 40 hours in a weekend.

 

[kewljason]

The OP never said this would be his living. I assumed it was only part time. So making an extra 30k a year playing on the weekends is bad?

He didn't state whether he intended to support himself with this play, nor what level of play he was considering, nor what amount of time he intended to devote to play. Many details were left out, thus making his question nearly impossible to answer.

I suspected the OP's intent was to live off that money. :sad: I figured he thought he needed 30K to live comfortably and that was the basis for his question, although we don't really know as he hasn't jumped back in to clarify anything. If this is the case, I would recommend against this plan. A far better plan of attack would be to find a steady income that can meet your basic living expenses and then attack this game as a parttime player. With experience, in time you will know the answer to this and other questions.

Again, I don't know what the OP's intent was, but since it seems we have young players considering this route more frequently now, I will take this opportunity to share some personal thoughts from my own experiences. Playing BJ for a living isn't as many invision it to be. Especially at low or even mid green to black limits. You really need to consider the whole package. Unless you are making 6 figured, which I am not...:sad: It is a real grind. Even if you have a real passion for blackjack, it sometimes is far worse than the job that you hate so much. Imagine going to that job day after day and not even getting paid, or worse yet handing them money for weeks and/or months at a time. When things are going good, no benefits. No paid vacation. If you are burned out and want a few days off it means no pay. No play...No pay. And no health insurance. This is a major consideration. I hope you figured it into the equation. And of course no retirement. You aren't paying anything into social security, so again, you better be planning for your retirement. (a young person probably shouldn't expect much help from social security anyway, but thats a topic for a different discussion, perhaps a different site...:laugh And last but certainly not least. I can't begin to describe the frustration and stress that occurs during prolonged losing stretches. And make no mistake about it...there will be prolonged losing periods! Weeks turning into months. I haven't personally experienced years yet, and hope not to, but the possibility is there. Nothing you read in books or from other players on a website can possibly prepare you for that experience. No matter how prepared you are or think you are, you will question everything you know to be true. The first prolonged losing period, with money going out and expenses due with nothing coming in is just a horrendous feeling. And the second time is only slightly better. :laugh:

So to Mr gamblingghost, again I say to you play it to your own comfort level. Yours appears extreme to me. I am more conservative than most and you are playing it far more conservative than me, but if you need 400 top wagers or 600 top wagers or even 1000 top wagers, then so be it.

 

[pit15]

The OP never said this would be his living. I assumed it was only part time. So making an extra 30k a year playing on the weekends is bad?

Well the way the question was asked makes it sound like full time. If it's part time he would need to specify frequency of play along with a ton of other details.

 

[gamblingghost]

Well the way the question was asked makes it sound like full time. If it's part time he would need to specify frequency of play along with a ton of other details.

The way the question was asked makes it impossible to tell. So, we must fill in the gaps ourselves. This is the way I filled it in. 16 hours a week, 50 weeks a year equals 800 total hours of getting cash on the tables. The game: 6 deck, rsa, das, 70% pene, no heat, no surrender. He wants to average 30k. None of the winnings go back into the BR. Repeat, the BR must be self sustaining. The winnings are for vacations and etc not for survival.

 

[Billy C1]

Commonplace

The one thing that has doomed more aspiring AP's than anything else was a good positive variance right at the beginning of their so called career and the lack of sense to hang on to the money so it would be there to cover the inevitable swing in the other direction when it happens.
This of course, holds true for gamblers in general, too.

BillyC1

 

[gamblingghost]

The one thing that has doomed more aspiring AP's than anything else was a good positive variance right at the beginning of their so called career and the lack of sense to hang on to the money so it would be there to cover the inevitable swing in the other direction when it happens.
This of course, holds true for gamblers in general, too.

BillyC1

Correct. But this is because they don't have a BR large enough to sustain itself. Better than 1 in 2500 chance of ruin. Only 100 max bets is a hail mary to me.

 

[Billy C1]

Correct. But this is because they don't have a BR large enough to sustain itself. Better than 1 in 2500 chance of ruin. Only 100 max bets is a hail mary to me.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. Rather than utilizing the benefit of the bigger BR that they could now have, they take the instant gratification of spending the money.

BillyC1

 

[beyondbj]

you should say how many hours per year you are willing or possible to play

the fewer hours u can play , that means the higher hourly rate u should earn in order to fulfill your target , then your bankroll should be more

if u can play 1000 hours per year , for a 30 dollar hourly rate

may be 30000 US bankroll will be safe if your game is not too bad rule