I have given up blackjack - for one year

[Charles Wells]

I never thought I would say this.

I am sick of blackjack. Counting has become a chore. I've been doing it for a long time and I need a break. Has anyone else arrived at this point as a AP?

I haved replaced it with something else which is more exciting and without all the headaches of counting cards waiting for positive counts.

Its called No limit Texas Holdem -maybe you have heard of it.

Now I embrace the ploppies coming to the table (we called them donks) because I know they want to make a donation to my stack. If you think there are dumb players in the BJ world you should see some of thr plays here.

If I dont like my hand I just just fold it. Being an AP BJ player is very different to being a poker player but it taught me discipline and patience.

I must of read a dozen books before I even went near a 1/2 blind ($100 buy in) game at the casino. Even at this level there are reasonable pots to be had (100-500 dollars) and I am averaging $200 plus wins per session. Im taking my time to build up to the 5/10 games and just reading more poker math.

Its small potatoes compared to my blackjack days but very enjoyable. Nothing beats knowing you have "the nuts", going all in and watching others go all in too <insert evil laugh here>.

I expect the game to get much more complicated when I go to bigger games.
If it doesnt work out I will return to BJ all refreshed.

 

[creeping panther]

Charles

I never thought I would say this.

I am sick of blackjack. Counting has become a chore. I've been doing it for a long time and I need a break. Has anyone else arrived at this point as a AP?

I haved replaced it with something else which is more exciting and without all the headaches of counting cards waiting for positive counts.

Its called No limit Texas Holdem -maybe you have heard of it.

Now I embrace the ploppies coming to the table (we called them donks) because I know they want to make a donation to my stack. If you think there are dumb players in the BJ world you should see some of thr plays here.

If I dont like my hand I just just fold it. Being an AP BJ player is very different to being a poker player but it taught me discipline and patience.

I must of read a dozen books before I even went near a 1/2 blind ($100 buy in) game at the casino. Even at this level there are reasonable pots to be had (100-500 dollars) and I am averaging $200 plus wins per session. Im taking my time to build up to the 5/10 games and just reading more poker math.

Its small potatoes compared to my blackjack days but very enjoyable. Nothing beats knowing you have "the nuts", going all in and watching others go all in too <insert evil laugh here>.

I expect the game to get much more complicated when I go to bigger games.
If it doesnt work out I will return to BJ all refreshed.

With the BJ you have there I agree with your decision.

CP

 

[sagefr0g]

it's all good

I never thought I would say this.

I am sick of blackjack. Counting has become a chore. I've been doing it for a long time and I need a break. Has anyone else arrived at this point as a AP?

yes & no, lol.
i gave up on trying to count crappy games pretty much. give me a excellent game and i'll probably count it some. what is tedious for me is holding the running count in my head over long periods of time (often long periods of time for which the count is negative).
so but what ever i still enjoy playing the game as long as there is an advantage.
if you just use knowledge you can pretty much play a break even game or even a little better even against crappy blackjack games. at least that's been my experience.

I haved replaced it with something else which is more exciting and without all the headaches of counting cards waiting for positive counts.
Its called No limit Texas Holdem -....

well i haven't gotten into table poker but kudos to you if you can hack it.
but yeah good move, other things to find an advantage in casino's sort of thing. that's the essence of this gambling against the casino thing, they start out with an advantage on you, you find those times when you have an advantage and go for it.
but yeah just blackjack can get tedious and it's a lot fighting against what ever edge the house has on you, sort of thing. hard to get the money across the table so as to make a decent score and then there is the risk element.
so maybe just as in the conventional wisdom for the stock market, diversification can be one of the keys to the kingdom, lol.
so maybe not give up blackjack totally, maybe just let it be part of your repertoire. like an nation at war maybe has an advantage if they not only have an army but instead also have a navy and air force too. a variety of weapons so to speak that have various uses, kind of thing. and lots of ammo, lol, so one wants a nice juicy bankroll, lol.
lmao, be like mankind when it comes to filling stomachs. what, isn't it that humans feed on a much greater variety of nourishment than other animals, sort of thing. again, it seems diversification has value, where we can live off a much wider range of stuff, even store it up, cultivate it, where other animals that's not so much the case.
so whatever, it's at least a strange thing to my mind, we live in a universe that has order, complexity and value, but that universe is ruled by this over riding phenomenon called entropy. heat is just gonna dissipate, lol. so in other words nuthin is perfect, lol. hard as the casino's try they still have entropy working on them. lmao, that's our edge, we just gotta find it.

 

[DMMx3]

yes & no, lol.
i gave up on trying to count crappy games pretty much. give me a excellent game and i'll probably count it some. what is tedious for me is holding the running count in my head over long periods of time (often long periods of time for which the count is negative).
so but what ever i still enjoy playing the game as long as there is an advantage.
if you just use knowledge you can pretty much play a break even game or even a little better even against crappy blackjack games. at least that's been my experience.

well i haven't gotten into table poker but kudos to you if you can hack it.
but yeah good move, other things to find an advantage in casino's sort of thing. that's the essence of this gambling against the casino thing, they start out with an advantage on you, you find those times when you have an advantage and go for it.
but yeah just blackjack can get tedious and it's a lot fighting against what ever edge the house has on you, sort of thing. hard to get the money across the table so as to make a decent score and then there is the risk element.
so maybe just as in the conventional wisdom for the stock market, diversification can be one of the keys to the kingdom, lol.
so maybe not give up blackjack totally, maybe just let it be part of your repertoire. like an nation at war maybe has an advantage if they not only have an army but instead also have a navy and air force too. a variety of weapons so to speak that have various uses, kind of thing. and lots of ammo, lol, so one wants a nice juicy bankroll, lol.
lmao, be like mankind when it comes to filling stomachs. what, isn't it that humans feed on a much greater variety of nourishment than other animals, sort of thing. again, it seems diversification has value, where we can live off a much wider range of stuff, even store it up, cultivate it, where other animals that's not so much the case.
so whatever, it's at least a strange thing to my mind, we live in a universe that has order, complexity and value, but that universe is ruled by this over riding phenomenon called entropy. heat is just gonna dissipate, lol. so in other words nuthin is perfect, lol. hard as the casino's try they still have entropy working on them. lmao, that's our edge, we just gotta find it.

I was going to make the exact same points about international defense, "filling stomachs," and entropy, but you beat me to it.

 

[sagefr0g]

I was going to make the exact same points about international defense, "filling stomachs," and entropy, but you beat me to it.

well, dam, i'd call that an AP move.
i did all the work, you get all the glory.:laugh:

 

[Charles Wells]

Poker math

Very nicely put.

Ive now found out that there is just as much math in poker as there is in BJ, maybe more (EV calculations, calculating outs, pot odds) and when you combine this with value betting to deny proper odds to drawing hands it makes it very interesting game.

In BJ we know how the dealer is going to plays his cards - the dealer will not fold their hand.

But beyond all of this (what cards to play, whether to check or bet etc) is another aspect of poker, which is called the metagame.

The metagame is that aspect of poker which goes beyond the tactics of the individual hands themselves. Here were in the realm of table image and table presence. Its the sum of everything that you know about the other players and everything they know about you.

In order to craft that metagame image you want, you will sometimes have to play hands in strange and non-optimal ways. Others see your plays and react to them - your metagame image takes shape.

I feel that this is where BJ and poker differ. I have many more opportunities to exploit in poker than BJ and its a more sophisticated game (from where Im sitting now) with huge rewards.

I think thats why NLTH has taken off around the world in the last few years.

 

[UK-21]

Do you have any comments to make on the variance inherrent within the game, or is it too early yet?

I took up hold'em for just three months during last year - a small sample to be sure. The baptism of fire I received led me to believe that the variance in the game could run off the richter scale (and in my case seemed to). If you're playing with people who play "any two can win", and/or chase and call through on hands that are poor, and then hit a 10-1 draw and clean up - and do this with monotonous regularity - it tends to put a damper on things. I'm sure if you play a tight game against such players you'll come out ahead over time, but I lost patience, dropped it, and haven't really played since.

Others have stated they think the variance in the game is lower than in BJ.

What's your experience?

 

[Charles Wells]

Nlth

I have been lucky not to have had such a baptism or maybe Im not lucky.

I think playing with idiots regularly definitely helps - I like the ones that go on tilt and start going all in with nothing. I love the type of player you mentioned in your post - We name them calling stations.

Once I have him worked out, this guy will go down fast.

If someone is going for a flush draw I am going to make it really expensive for them to do so. If they go for it regularly with the wrong pot odds they will lose over time.

All games with a significant skill component share a common characteristic. Its not enough to play well; if you are a winner over time, you win because your opponents make more mistakes than you do. So my objective is to try and make as few mistakes as possible - the amount won/lost at each session is not paramount.

If I make a mistake, I go home and plug all the cards in an odds calculator and write down what happened before the flop and at each turn in a journal. Next time that kind of hand comes up I will know better.

I have only been playing a month and the stakes have been low. Over 50 hours of play I have netted $2000. Admittedly I have won reasonable pots by getting a full house on the river and beating Ace high flushes so I dont expect to continue winning at the same rate.

When I move up to 5/10 blinds in the future I expect my opponents to play much better and challenge me. I will just have to read and play better to compensate.

I started off playing very tight (only high pocket pairs AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10,10) plus AK suited. After I realised most players were donkeys I loosened up a lot and now play unpredictably.

I dont want everyone to know my style and predict my hand. I like misrepresenting my hands every now and again and force my opponents to play a style they are not used to - force them to make difficult decisions - they will stuff up soon enough.

I would definitely recommend reading Volume I of Harrington's Cash games How to win at No Limit Holdem games. There is a poker trainer on the net for free which advises you what to do for any given situation - its also worth clokcing up some time with that.

I have spent hundreds of my winnings on books and its been worth every penny.

I would encourage you to have another go at it but be patient and better prepared.

 

[blikous]

How much does Crown rake at the $1/2 tables?

 

[Caesar]

rake/limit holdem?

Congrats on your initial success in Holdem. You're right in pointing out that the ability to fold a weak hand is an advantage when compared to blackjack. Few blackjack games offer surrender anymore.
I have read that the rake is high in Australia. What is the rake in your 1/2 no-limit games? Also, do you play much limit holdem in Australia?

 

[Charles Wells]

THNL at crown

Hi there

I think the rake is 10% with a max of $6. I didnt see any cash limit games. I think No limit is the most popular game here. If there were limit tables then there werent many of them. They have regular tournaments at crown which feature limit games - I may be wrong.

(Dead link: http://www.crownpoker.com.au/)

I would say its the best poker room in Australia. Definitely has the most tables. Play during the day (I went there at 10am) was reasonable with only a 20 min wait to get on to a 2/3 table. 1/2 tables are only open from Monday to Thursday.

At about 11pm on Friday night the idiots flooded the place. One idiot came to my table and proceeded to shove all in, regularly and from any position. Alot of the players were intimidated and folded but I just waited until I had a high pair and I hit the board on the flop to make trips. I figured it was good enough so I called his all in - turns out he had nothing.

Another showdown saw two players go all in and both had nothing. King high won it! I folded two pair because I thought they were on flush draws and I would get beaten.

If you want to see madmen play poker go to crown.

 

[1357111317]

Hi there


Another showdown saw two players go all in and both had nothing. King high won it! I folded two pair because I thought they were on flush draws and I would get beaten.

QUOTE]

That makes no sense. You should stick to 1/2 if you adopting the philosophy "I'm going to fold the best hand becaues I'm afraid they will suck out on me"

 

[Charles Wells]

going all in

Well I didnt know they had nothing until the showdown and I folded after the flop.

At that point in the game I didnt want to risk my whole stack which had taken hours to build with two (low) pairs.

If one of them got the flush or trips I would have been wiped out.

Some of these people play poker like money means nothing to them. If they go broke they just buy in again...and again.

I did not feel it was worth going forward with that one.

 

[1357111317]

Well I didnt know they had nothing until the showdown and I folded after the flop.

At that point in the game I didnt want to risk my whole stack which had taken hours to build with two (low) pairs.

If one of them got the flush or trips I would have been wiped out.

Some of these people play poker like money means nothing to them. If they go broke they just buy in again...and again.

I did not feel it was worth going forward with that one.

So there was no possibility they had a flush just a flush draw?

 

[Tarzan]

Giving it up for one year ALSO

Not blackjack though... I am giving up smearing chocolate syrup all over women's breasts for one year though! The cost of cases of chocolate syrup, the upholstery cleaning bills, the improper dietary ramifications of having chocolate syrup coated breasts about... it's gotten to be a bit overwhelming. Perhaps I will take up some poker also and read Doyle Brunson's book.

 

[Charles Wells]

flush draw

After the flop I put them both on flush draws.

They had both previously shown Ace high flushes (made on the river) and taken the pot after aggressive betting (pot sized bets with all in after the river).

I wasnt feeling in the mood to go up against those guys unless I flopped a fullhouse.

Very funny about the syrup. Even pleasureable pursuits can become onerous after a long time.

 

[Nynefingers]

If you put them both on flush draws, and you had two pair, you should generally be trying to get the money in as quickly as possible (before they draw out), right? What was the effective stack size? Was the board very coordinated, with straight and flush draws possible? If there was no immediate possibility that they could have a straight or a flush, and if they were playing loose and aggressive, I'd probably just try to get the money in on the flop with 2 pair there, depending on stack sizes.

Some of these people play poker like money means nothing to them. If they go broke they just buy in again...and again.

If you want to play poker seriously, this has to be your mentality as well. You can't choose your spots based on whether or not you will have to rebuy. You have to be unemotional about the money and make whatever plays the odds say you should make. Of course, it's fine to tailor your play to the situation somewhat. If there is a maniac shoving PF every hand without looking at his cards and everyone else folds, you don't necessarily have to call with any hand Q7+. You're probably going to get other chances. But it sounds like in your case you were in a much better spot than that, unless there are other details that made the difference. If you are adequately bankrolled for the game, getting your stack in with the advantage shouldn't be looked at as a liability. Of course, I'm no expert, and I may be missing other pieces of the puzzle specific to your particular situation.

 

[Charles Wells]

Thanks for the lesson.

You are correct. I'm supposed to make it expensive for them to go for their flush draw. I suppose I'm in new territory and these people really are maniacs.

If it makes any difference - I was waiting for the right opportunity to smash them.

In an earlier hand I had QQ and I raised preflop.
The flop went 8, 5, 4 rainbow
Maniac makes a pot sized bet and I re-raised him, maniac calls.
Turn is 6.
I check, Maniac makes half pot bet which means he is looking for a call.
My overpair is going to get beat (by a straight). I fold.

Next hand

I have KK

The flop comes K72 rainbow
Turn is a 4
River is a 6
I check the flop.
I Bet the pot on the turn which gets raised.
I go all in on the river which he calls.

Maniac shows a pocket sevens, just laughs at me for not raising with cowboys on the flop and re-buys in.

 

[blikous]

When is there the most donkeys? Like when is the best/most profitable time to go? You mentioned Friday at 11. And what's the best blind limits for these stupid players

I have a bag of carrots I would love to convert to money

 

[Charles Wells]

Crown on Friday nights

I wasnt impressed with the late morning day time. Too many sharks with pimples born after the year 1990 wearing hoodies and dark glasses.

Nobody said much. I introduced myself to the players next to me in one of the breaks but they didnt give me a name just a handle they use on different poker sites, something "mudguts2000" and the "terminator".

I came back after 11pm and the place was full of idiots. Look for guys wearing football guernseys drinking Jack Daniels. Guys that mention Tamworth and Mt Isa are also usually good value.

There are enough donkeys here to make a decent hourly rate. Beware of ladies that look like they are beauticians. Some of them can play.