I keep getting backed off!

Discussion in 'Skilled Play - Card Counting, Advanced Strategies' started by Toxic, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. Toxic

    Toxic Active Member

    There are now 2 establishments I am not allowed to play in, and two others that will likely back me off next visit.

    I spread 25-300 in green, sometimes dropping my min bet if the table allows. DD, SD, 6D it doesn't matter.

    The pit itself has never been the problem. Always surveillance as my bet varies with the count. Can I do anything better? I can keep the pit at bay with conversation and requests for comps. How to beat surveillance?
  2. Well, I have a few ideas. Nothing revolutionary but I might as well pitch in my 2 cents and hope an accumulation of all of our ideas can help you.
    Idea 1) Try changing the time of day you're playing at.
    Idea 2) cut your sessions short when you're winning big and make them longer when you're losing.
    Idea 3) Don't use a players card
    Idea 4) Throw in a large bet during the first hand of a shoe when you sense you may be getting heat
    Idea 5) Drink a little bit while you play. Baby sit a bear or wine.
    That's all I got for you man. I know it's not the most stellar list but i'm hoping something on the list helps you generate ideas. In the end there's probably no way to beat a computer that's analyzing your play. It will either determine you're winning or a loser. The heat probably starts from the pit and stems its way up because they can't analyze everyone. If that's the case then typical camouflage methods may be in order.
  3. Toxic

    Toxic Active Member

    I am drinking while playing. Both back offs have come when I've left the table going to the cage.

    I've lost a lost with the above mentioned cover bet
  4. DSchles

    DSchles Well-Known Member

    Do you use the same spread regardless of SD, DD, or shoes? Because, if you're trying to spread $25 or LESS to $150 in SD, you're going to get thrown out of every casino in the world.

  5. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

    My thoughts:

    First Don is exactly right, as he often is. If you are spreading $25-$300 on SD, DD and shoe games, well...that just doesn't make sense. That kind of spread, even at those low, mid-level stakes is going to get you banned at almost every SD and DD game. That kind of spread is better tolerated at 6 deck, but that too is dependent on a few thing, like how long your sessions are, how you are ramping your spread (big jumps), how often you are playing the same places.

    I play similar stakes, $400 max bet at most place, but $300 at some of the smaller places, so pretty similar. I play 250+ days a year and get minimal backoffs. maybe 5 a year and in recent years more have come on road trips, than my regular rotation. This is because I have made longevity my top priority. I have tailored a plan for that priority. The 3 basic elements are short sessions, fairly big rotation of about 30 stores, and identifying betting level that are tolerated, at least for the short sessions that I play.

    Now of course everyone doesn't have 30 local games. I didn't either...I specifically moved to a location that offered that. because if you are playing the same few casinos over and over, seeing the same faces, you aren't going to last long anywhere, playing more than red chip level.

    I am guessing you do the complete opposite of 2 of my 3 rules. Play the same few casinos over and over and play long sessions. Long sessions means pit and surveillance will have ample opportunity to evaluate your game. They will see your spread multiple times, including the biggest tell of retreating back to minimum wager at the start of a new shuffle, which is a big no-no for anyone concerned about longevity.

    First, as Zengrifter often says, you set your spread from max bet backward. So at DD your max would be $300, but you don't have to play $25 min, which is 1-12 and way too telling for DD. Instead play $50-$300 which is 1-6 and better tolerated. And I am going to share a little tip that I use, that really makes a big difference in my DD play and longevity. Spread both ways! You can afford to do this at DD (and SD), you can't at shoe game.

    In other words, when you sit down, don't play your min bet of $50, play $75 or $100. If the count starts to rise as it can quickly do at DD, you will only be showing a spread of $100-$300, which is 1-3. If the count goes negative drop down to your min wager of $50. Then at the shuffle go back to $100. Usually you won't be betting $50 (negative count) and your max of $300 in the same shoe, or time through the cards. Occasionally it happens, but it's rare. So to see you full spread, they have to watch through several different shuffle and put it all together, rather than just one time through the cards. I, personally don't play long enough for that to happen. It's kind of a simple tactic, but you would be surprised how effective it is.
    Talmadge likes this.
  6. Toxic

    Toxic Active Member

    Thanks guys. My spread was indeed too big. I was blinded by maximizing EV on this trip. I have since not had any problems. I really like the cover bet off the top of the shoe. Can I sim cover bets like this on CVCX?
  7. Toxic

    Toxic Active Member

    A new question, regarding b/o or barrings. A pitboss tells me I'm 86'd, but that's it. Didn't tell me I'd be trespassing if I return or read any legal mumbojumbo.

    What are the ramifications if I'm caught returning? I'm not interested in getting charges pressed against me, but it's a really really good game.

    What are my options if I choose not to return for a LONG time?

    If they say they 86'd me already, is it my word vs theirs or are they burdened with supplying proof?
  8. stopgambling

    stopgambling Well-Known Member

    you are barred
  9. They have better things to do with their time and money than drag you to court trying to prove something that may or may not have happened.
    That's my opinion.
  10. Midwest Player

    Midwest Player Well-Known Member

    I have often played $25 to $150 in Wendover on single deck. No backoffs yet. Are you recommending a smaller spread?
  11. LVBear584

    LVBear584 Administrator

    You're underestimating the viciousness of casino employees, how mentally unstable many casino guards are, and how corrupt many local police officers are. Scroll through some of these legal cases.


    In particular, see:

    Advantage gambler cleared of charges

    Federal jury awards $729,000 to victim of patron abuse by Hollywood Casino in Tunica

    Maryland Live! Casino and Anne Arundel County, Maryland police officers settle with falsely imprisoned card counter

    False imprisonment of patrons costs Virgin River Mesquite $200,000

    “Fearful” South Point security guard fires shot into windshield of occupied car in parking garage

    Eldorado Reno guard pleads guilty to manslaughter in killing of patron

    Federal judge enters Partial Summary Judgment against two Metro police officers for false imprisonment over illegal detention at Cosmopolitan Las Vegas; Metro eventually paid $82,500 to the victim

    Casinos, police, state officials often intimidate legal patrons, lawyers say

    Jury: New Frontier must pay $110,000 to card counter

    Romanski vs. Motor City Casino et al.

  12. Wow, thanks for the info. I hope I get falsely imprisoned or beat up. I'm going to make way more money from the lawsuit than I ever will counting cards.
  13. LVBear584

    LVBear584 Administrator

    I think it's safe to say that Don's comments are not applicable to the Paradise known as Wendover. I lasted well over a decade there, essentially betting minimum to maximum. It might have been fifteen years, I would need to go back to ancient records to check.

    I won a lot of money there, and am glad I played it the way I did (maximizing EV) rather than retire leaving money on the Wendover tables.
  14. LVBear584

    LVBear584 Administrator

    Not a good idea, for many reasons, including the risk of serous personal injury that may be permanent. Avoid situations that'll result in litigation.
  15. LC Larry

    LC Larry Well-Known Member

    MotorCity and MGM Detroit STILL, to this day, accuse people of theft when they find abandoned credits/slot tickets.
  16. LVBear584

    LVBear584 Administrator

    It takes more than a few hundred thousand dollars for casinos to learn their lessons, I suppose. Undoubtedly there will be more lawsuits.
  17. ZeeBabar

    ZeeBabar Banned

    I agree with most of what Kewlj has written. However, these days, even Ploppies start out with a lower bet at start of shoes, mostly minimum. A tactic I use is sometimes switching to 2 hands, be it in positive or negative shoes. For example, if my bet ramp calls for a $75 bet, I will sometimes go to two hands of $50 each and sometimes stay with one hand of $75. Similarly, If I have a $100 bet out at TC+2 and the count goes negative, next hand I might have 2 hands of $25.

    Random going from one hand to two and back can confuse the pit while also driving ploppies insane and you can get heads up. However, you got to tip the dealer from time to time so he does not get pissed off.
  18. xengrifter

    xengrifter Well-Known Member

    LVBear584 likes this.
  19. ZeeBabar

    ZeeBabar Banned

    It is nonsense if having a pleasant environment is not important to you. In my case, I find the dealer also getting upset at switching between 1 and two hands and joining in the chorus of poppies showing irritation at my "screwing up the flow of the cards" makes for an unpleasant experience. If the dealer remains quiet, it helps.
  20. xengrifter

    xengrifter Well-Known Member

    Disagree...but, how much would you be willing to tip?

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