I'm new and got too much paranoia?

[shiznites]

Hi all!

I'm new to counting and I've been reading through these threads and practicing the past few months and finally tried my hand at an Indian casino like 2 weeks ago.

I played for about 8 hours (which I just read is WAY too long to be playing so I won't do that next time). When I got chips I only did $100 at a time and asked for "$5 chips." I play at a modest $15 - $60 spread cause I got a $9K BR. I ended up with a net LOSS of $165. So many negative shoes, it was such a pain.

Anyway, during the game I was talking with all the players, dealers, pit bosses, and was having a good time "gambling." I'm very extroverted at the tables so talking while counting was easy enough. When the dealers burn a card I'd ask to see it cause I said, "If its an Ace its good luck!" (some of the other players started asking to see it too cause of this lol) Is this a bad move?

I sensed no "heat" at all and the main pit boss guy seemed to really like me. During play I was very outlandish and "gambler-like" (which I'm good at cause I got the experience) and did a few inexpensive camo bets just to be safe. However, after reading all these threads about people getting barred after having such small bet spreads like mine got me a lil nervous.

Am I being too paranoid?

This weekend I'll be going to a different casino. Would it be legit/safe to play like 3 hours at one pit then move to the next and play for another 3 hours? If not, whats an "appropriate" play time?

Note its a 3 hour drive to any casino for me.

Cheers,
shiz

 

[no_fear]

I'm also new, but been reading up a lot. So far what I've learnt is that basically if your cover is good enough and you aren't getting any heat you can get away with longer sessions and higher bet spreads. So I don't think you should worry too much.

Good luck

 

[iCountNTrack]

Welcome aboard!

It is very unlikely you will get barred playing nickels. But from your betting spread i suspect you are playing-all through negative and positive counts, unless you care about getting comps, that approach is not the best especially that your bankroll is still quite modest and you are in the process of building it. The best thing for you at the moment is to backcount because this will significantly reduce the variance.
The other mistake is you played for too long at the same table, 8 hours is definitely too long. The rule of thumb is short enough sessions so that you never play through two consecutive shifts. The idea is to keep them guessing.

 

[FLASH1296]

The value of seeing a single burn card is minimal (understatement) in a shoe game;
and you will NEVER be shown the burn card in a "pitch" game, where it does have value.

Your spread is almost certainly insufficient to overcome the house advantage.

As such you can play forever and they will easily conclude that you are counting cards and doing so without enough aggression to win meaningful amounts. Eventually they will "back you off" anyway as you are occupying a seat that could be taken by a patron who is a cinch to leave his paycheck behind.

You neglected to give the table conditions. That is the rules and penetration. Without that info' our comments will be superficial.

 

[QFIT]

When the dealers burn a card I'd ask to see it cause I said, "If its an Ace its good luck!" (some of the other players started asking to see it too cause of this lol) Is this a bad move?

A little extra info at seeing the burn card at Modern Blackjack page 434.

 

[shiznites]

Thanks guys!

The rules: 6deck game, I noticed about 65-75% penetration (depending on the dealer), stands on A6, double after split allowed (cept A), no split 10's (why would you anyway?), late surrender allowed, and insurance.

Ok so from what I gathered so far, I'll be ok if I increase my spread (is $15-90 good or more?), and I'll def start backcounting and moving around more when I'm playing at a disadvantage.

That night I was sorta obligated to stay at that table cause it was a Saturday and it was the the only $15 min table left. Majority was $25 min which I don't think I can afford at this point.

Also, after seeing that, I'll never ask to see a burn card again lol

 

[bjcount]

The value of seeing a single burn card is minimal (understatement) in a shoe game;
and you will NEVER be shown the burn card in a "pitch" game, where it does have value.

Your spread is almost certainly insufficient to overcome the house advantage.

As such you can play forever and they will easily conclude that you are counting cards and doing so without enough aggression to win meaningful amounts. Eventually they will "back you off" anyway as you are occupying a seat that could be taken by a patron who is a cinch to leave his paycheck behind.

You neglected to give the table conditions. That is the rules and penetration. Without that info' our comments will be superficial.

What's this, New glasses? Now I need a pair. .... holy crap

BJC

 

[bjcount]

Thanks guys!

The rules: 6deck game, I noticed about 65-75% penetration (depending on the dealer), stands on A6, double after split allowed (cept A), no split 10's (why would you anyway?), late surrender allowed, and insurance.

Ok so from what I gathered so far, I'll be ok if I increase my spread (is $15-90 good or more?), and I'll def start backcounting and moving around more when I'm playing at a disadvantage.

That night I was sorta obligated to stay at that table cause it was a Saturday and it was the the only $15 min table left. Majority was $25 min which I don't think I can afford at this point.

Also, after seeing that, I'll never ask to see a burn card again lol

Sounds like a Mohegan Sun player to me with that no split 10's rule. They were mobbed last weekend and only had half their tables open. Watch out for the $5 tables in pit 9, they're H17. If that's where you played I wouldn't worry about playing max bets at $60 bucks or for playing 8hrs since your spread is only 1-4 and too small to beat their game playing all.

and never feel obligated to sit at the table because theres no other tables. If thats the case then it too crowded to be playing anyway. Take a nap and go back at 4am.

BJC

 

[shiznites]

Yeh it was Mohegan! I never play the $5 tables.. Always too crowded!!!

 

[bjcount]

Yeh it was Mohegan! I never play the $5 tables.. Always too crowded!!!

oh shiit... was that you next to me that wouldn't shut up ? :joker::whip:

after 11am it was too crowded to play... even the NMS pit which is usually $25 min was all $50 min and packed by 3pm Sat. We found an empty table in the back of Wind. The dealer said she was hot and breaking everyone who played at her table, played 3 hands, and the table became full... went home.

BJC

 

[StandardDeviant]

I've played some long stints at one joint, but I do it for practice and not to make money. Then I go elsewhere to play more aggressively.

My practice sessions can be 2 or 3 hours at length, and I might to 2 or (rarely) 3 sessions in a day. I usually only spread 1:4 max on 6D or 8D shoes. I also throw in a range of camo from incorrect plays, to betting 4 units at negative counts, to betting multiple units on the first hand out of the shoe, to tipping, to talking with the dealers and pit bosses, to being a complete goof ball. I don't do all these things at the same time. I probably don't need camo, but I'm doing it for the practice.

I've run my "goof ball" rountine on the sim, and my EV is about 0, which is where I want it for practice. I'm not out to make money at this, I just want to practice. I do earn comps for this tho, so I come out slightly ahead.

I've not experienced any heat in doing this, but I do wonder if I've given them too much time to watch me play. My betting is more irregular now, and my act is better (I think), but about 9 months ago I was not smart enough to know that I shouldn't be betting like this 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-4 as the deck went from cold to hot. Fortunately, this was at an 8D game, so the shoe was cold so much of the time, there were not that many situations where the eye could correlate my bet ramp with the count. Still...

I'd be interested in this group's opinions on whether I am still living on borrowed time. My assumption has been that even if the place has me figured out, they've concluded that I'm no threat because my spread is so low.

Thoughts?

 

[CasualPlayer]

2 cents inbound:

In my experience if you're playing nickels and spreading 1-4 in a shoe you're not going to get any heat. I don't care if you play 24/7/365, no one is watching. Don't bother to make cover bets at this spread level.

Also, Shiz mentioned being outgoing and friendly with dealers and pit crew. I personally find this to be the most effective cover. If you're a comps player it can also help pad your rating.

The counters who come to the table throwing off bad-vibes, trying to clear the table and generally being heavily anti-social, are so obvious to me most of the time that it is laughable. I have pegged most of them before they ever raise their bet with the count. Still, these more aggressive counters wong out frequently so don't hang around to get noticed. I have rarely seen the dealers or PC give them a second look.

Probably the best thing to remember is that dealers and pit crew see a never ending stream of a**holes come and go all day. Few of them are vigilant or skilled enough to spot the dangerous ones. What they are looking for is the big variance in betting patterns.

Cheers, CP

 

[creeping panther]

let us be clear

2 cents inbound:

In my experience if you're playing nickels and spreading 1-4 in a shoe you're not going to get any heat. I don't care if you play 24/7/365, no one is watching. Don't bother to make cover bets at this spread level.

Also, Shiz mentioned being outgoing and friendly with dealers and pit crew. I personally find this to be the most effective cover. If you're a comps player it can also help pad your rating.

The counters who come to the table throwing off bad-vibes, trying to clear the table and generally being heavily anti-social, are so obvious to me most of the time that it is laughable. I have pegged most of them before they ever raise their bet with the count. Still, these more aggressive counters wong out frequently so don't hang around to get noticed. I have rarely seen the dealers or PC give them a second look.

Probably the best thing to remember is that dealers and pit crew see a never ending stream of a**holes come and go all day. Few of them are vigilant or skilled enough to spot the dangerous ones. What they are looking for is the big variance in betting patterns.

Cheers, CP

In CERTAIN games a 1 to 4 spread will beat the house, say $100 to $400, $25 to $100, $50 to $200. Especially when swinging to 2 spots, so that $100 become $800 and with the splits and doubles....well you get the picture.

A *very* good game with a very skilled player can easily be beaten using the above. The added benefit is you are not so apt to dig yourself such a hole you cannot crawl out of it, or draw excessive attention.

Spreading wildly is what destroys most counters, as counting alone does a somewhat risky job of getting the money.

CP

 

[WRX]

you will NEVER be shown the burn card in a "pitch" game, where it does have value.

Care to bet on that?

 

[bjcount]

In CERTAIN games a 1 to 4 spread will beat the house, say $100 to $400, $25 to $100, $50 to $200. Especially when swinging to 2 spots, so that $100 become $800 and with the splits and doubles....well you get the picture.

A *very* good game with a very skilled player can easily be beaten using the above. The added benefit is you are not so apt to dig yourself such a hole you cannot crawl out of it, or draw excessive attention.

Spreading wildly is what destroys most counters, as counting alone does a somewhat risky job of getting the money.

CP

CP

I believe we were reflecting upon shiznites game regarding the 1-4 spread. No doubt in a very good emphasis on very you may be able to beat a 6d game with some wonging out, but it's still going to be tough if you play all.

Knowing the game very well that shiznites is playing, lets not lead him to believe that a 1-4 or even 1-6 spread play all will substantially beat it. If he's not scouting and he's playing all, in a 4/6d on average game in crowded conditions, he might as well just be flat betting, using BS, and expect a ~0.5% loss.

The 3 to 4 times in 8 hrs he sees a TC over +3 will be as the cut card comes out and will never have the opportunity to see those big cards. If he's fortunate to see them come out, he's got a 1 in 7 chance they'll be on his spot. (6 players + the dealer)

BJC

note:
To make this point hit home I ran two short 100 million hand sims using the OP's rules.
4/6d hilo 1-4 spread. play all... $5.00 unit ... win rate/hr $1.47 SCORE= 2.89 N0=345,459
5.5/6d hilo 1-4 spread. win rate/hr $6.07 SCORE=38.11 N0=26,240

 

[creeping panther]

Bjc

CP

I believe we were reflecting upon shiznites game regarding the 1-4 spread. No doubt in a very good emphasis on very you may be able to beat a 6d game with some wonging out, but it's still going to be tough if you play all.

Knowing the game very well that shiznites is playing, lets not lead him to believe that a 1-4 or even 1-6 spread play all will substantially beat it. If he's not scouting and he's playing all, in a 4/6d on average game in crowded conditions, he might as well just be flat betting, using BS, and expect a ~0.5% loss.

The 3 to 4 times in 8 hrs he sees a TC over +3 will be as the cut card comes out and will never have the opportunity to see those big cards. If he's fortunate to see them come out, he's got a 1 in 7 chance they'll be on his spot. (6 players + the dealer)

BJC

note:
To make this point hit home I ran two short 100 million hand sims using the OP's rules.
4/6d hilo 1-4 spread. play all... $5.00 unit ... win rate/hr $1.47 SCORE= 2.89 N0=345,459
5.5/6d hilo 1-4 spread. win rate/hr $6.07 SCORE=38.11 N0=26,240

For sure I was not referring to his game or him as a player.

I think I made that clear.

Thanks,

CP

 

[Blue Efficacy]

The value of seeing a single burn card is minimal (understatement) in a shoe game;
and you will NEVER be shown the burn card in a "pitch" game, where it does have value.

Your spread is almost certainly insufficient to overcome the house advantage.

As such you can play forever and they will easily conclude that you are counting cards and doing so without enough aggression to win meaningful amounts. Eventually they will "back you off" anyway as you are occupying a seat that could be taken by a patron who is a cinch to leave his paycheck behind.

You neglected to give the table conditions. That is the rules and penetration. Without that info' our comments will be superficial.

Never? Funny, my state mandates the burn card be shown if requested. For any number of decks.

Don't make such blanket statements you cannot fully back up.

If you played every 2 deck game on the planet, asked to see the burn card, and were refused every time, then you would be qualified in your statement.

 

[shiznites]

I was naive to think I could be successful at this knowing so little when at the time I thought I knew enough to beat the game. Which is why Im glad I came on here and heard all your comments. I decided that Im not gonna go back to the casino til I become more knowlegable and proficient at this. For the record this is not something I got into to make a career out of. Its my new favorite hobby =] Also I am the shiz when it comes to not looking like a counter at the table! Once again thanks for all the pointers!