Info on SP21 Indices?

[farmdoggy]

I was wondering if anyone knew of any good resources to check out for Spanish 21 index plays... I have 2 games available near me, one is 6D H17 w/ redouble and the other is 6D S17.

Thanks for any help

Edit: I think I will be using the "ignore 2" balanced HiLo count, but is it more usefull to count the ace as 2 instead? Which will be more usefull do you think? I have heard that the ace = 2 count has a better betting correlation, but I also heard that index plays in SP21 are more valuable than they are in traditional blackjack. I think either system should be easy enough to use, so I'll opt for more $.

 

[Brock Windsor]

Katrina Walkers book is a must and has complete hi-lo indicies
-BW

 

[FLASH1296]

The H17 Span21 game has a different E.O.R. than does the S17 game.
For the H17 game follow Ms. Walker's sage advice re: card counting.
Katarina Walker's Book is your bible.

SEE: WizardofOdds.com, a very very reliable source.

GO TO:

http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21

http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/the-pros-guide-to-spanish-21-and-australian-pontoon/12464357?productTrackingContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/4

 

[farmdoggy]

Just bought a hard copy today... Thanks guys.

 

[duanedibley]

Edit: I think I will be using the "ignore 2" balanced HiLo count, but is it more usefull to count the ace as 2 instead?

Counting the Ace as -2 is much better than counting the Deuce as 0.

 

[JJP]

I believe there's at least one member on here who plays Spanish 21. Anyone out there read Katarina Walker's book? Is Sp 21 basic strategy worth adding as a skill set?

 

[21forme]

I believe there's at least one member on here who plays Spanish 21. Anyone out there read Katarina Walker's book? Is Sp 21 basic strategy worth adding as a skill set?

Would I learn BS alone? No. Would I learn BS, index plays, and how to count Sp21? That depends on the availability of games where you play. It is a worthwhile addition, if the opportunities are present for you.

 

[JJP]

Would I learn BS alone? No. Would I learn BS, index plays, and how to count Sp21? That depends on the availability of games where you play. It is a worthwhile addition, if the opportunities are present for you.

I know the count is different, starting with a negative number that is the product of 4 times the number of decks, but other than that, isn't the Hi Lo the same? Spanish 21 is offered most places I play. From what I understand, when Walker's book came out there was virtually no heat, but on a recent GWAE podcast, they said that apparently has changed. Did you like Walker's book?

 

[21forme]

I bought Walker's book the week it became available. I wanted to hit the game before its vulnerabilities were well-known. Yes, it has changed over the years and it's no longer a sweat-free game.

I think Walker's book is excellent. There have been some improvements made to the count over HiLo. That is, counting the A as -2. It's often referred to as the Monkey Count.

If the game is offered where you play, by all means, learn the game. The more games you can play with an adge, the better.

 

[johndoe]

I miss having Automatic Monkey around.

His "Secret Monkey Count" (A=-2, otherwise hi-lo) works well, probably better than Walker's, and there are a few useful indexes. I don't know if it should be posted openly, or if it matters anymore. (Back then it was all hush hush).

Pretty sure I have the S17/no redouble info if that's what you're playing.

 

[21forme]

I miss having Automatic Monkey around.

Agree. Last time I saw him, about 7 years ago, I was walking down the street in LV and happened to see him walking in the other direction!

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

I miss having Automatic Monkey around.

His "Secret Monkey Count" (A=-2, otherwise hi-lo) works well, probably better than Walker's, and there are a few useful indexes. I don't know if it should be posted openly, or if it matters anymore. (Back then it was all hush hush).

Pretty sure I have the S17/no redouble info if that's what you're playing.

So is there a big difference in performance and/or learning difficulty between AM`s system and Katrina`s? I don`t consider counting only the ace differently as harder of course (I play hi-lo). I ask because I have her book, but have never gotten around to reading it because the lack of SP21 games near me. I had planned to read the book on an upcoming trip when I`ll have some spare time though....

 

[johndoe]

I'm pretty sure the performance is better with AM's, and I appreciate that it's also a balanced count. The book is still worth reading though, it's an important work.

 

[JJP]

Where is Spanish 21 not offered? In California, I see it at most places. I've only been in a couple Midwest casinos (Rivers and Potawatomi) but they both had it. Maybe an East Coast thing?

 

[johndoe]

Agree. Last time I saw him, about 7 years ago, I was walking down the street in LV and happened to see him walking in the other direction!

I only met him once, we played together in a local store, backbetting each other's hands, as was the custom. Much fun. It's been years, I doubt I'd recognize him now. (Unless I saw him play!)

As for SP21, I think there are lousy versions all over, but decent rules in WA and CT mostly. The rules do vary a fair bit, and it can really impact EV.

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

I'm pretty sure the performance is better with AM's, and I appreciate that it's also a balanced count. The book is still worth reading though, it's an important work.

Got it, thanks. I`ll read her book first and then go from there. Do you mind to send me the information about AM`s system that you referenced above please? Or is there somewhere I can find it online?

 

[johndoe]

PM sent.

 

[Dummy]

So is there a big difference in performance and/or learning difficulty between AM`s system and Katrina`s? I don`t consider counting only the ace differently as harder of course (I play hi-lo).

I have played SP21 a few times with AM in the last 5 years. He guards info until it is not of value to him anymore. He released SMC for public consumption because it is a rudimentary count compared to what the advanced counts are now. There is so many nuanced plays to beating SP21 that SMC just can't handle. Even the ace neutral version. Don't expect any of the more advanced counts to be offered. We who use them did our own research and guard them to protect the opportunity. With that said there is still opportunity out there for those that do the work to get it. Beating S17 SP21 is all about getting playing hands strong to get the most out of the bonus payouts. Gains in this area will be far far greater than gains in being since each betting TC has both huge advantage situations and huge disadvantage situations. To capitalize on all large advantage deck compositions you need to play your hands strong. This will allow you to bet a lot more and win more consistently.

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

PM sent.

Great, much appreciated!

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

I have played SP21 a few times with AM in the last 5 years. He guards info until it is not of value to him anymore. He released SMC for public consumption because it is a rudimentary count compared to what the advanced counts are now. There is so many nuanced plays to beating SP21 that SMC just can't handle. Even the ace neutral version. Don't expect any of the more advanced counts to be offered. We who use them did our own research and guard them to protect the opportunity. With that said there is still opportunity out there for those that do the work to get it. Beating S17 SP21 is all about getting playing hands strong to get the most out of the bonus payouts. Gains in this area will be far far greater than gains in being since each betting TC has both huge advantage situations and huge disadvantage situations. To capitalize on all large advantage deck compositions you need to play your hands strong. This will allow you to bet a lot more and win more consistently.

Got it. I completely understand why all the information is heavily guarded. It`s complicated to say the least from what I know about it, and I`m sure once you go down the rabbit hole with researching what works best it gets even crazier. So especially since it`s not really offered where I am, learning/researching it will have to take a backseat to sharpening my regular 21 skills as much as possible. I am looking forward to getting into it in the future though; it`s a really cool game.