Interesting BJ in Oklahoma

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#1
Someone suggested that instead of playing in OK, that I practice by back counting at the casino I go to quite often. Last night was a good opportunity to do exactly that. The table (the only table open last night) was full and there were a dozen people on the waiting list. The tables are the tall ones and there was a guy in a wheelchair sitting in the center of the table. Next to him, sat a guy I'd seen on the table several times who was flat betting $15 a hand and losing his butt.

At the end of a shoe, I went to get a cup of coffee. They hand shuffle and it's a very slow process, especially last night as they were breaking in a new dealer. Took forever! Anyway, when I got to the coffee dispenser, this guy who was flat betting came up behind me and said that he had been watching me the past few weeks and noticed that I had changed my betting habits and seemed to be betting minimums until the end of the shoe and then sometimes max out my bet! I had to sort of smile at that. With KO, starting with a -20 count, it takes a while to get favorable (-4) if it ever gets favorable.

I told him I was practicing counting and that it was toward the end of the shoe that you most often got the chance to ramp your bets. He really didn't believe that much in counting. He'd been told by casino employees that it was "impossible" to count a 6-deck shoe. So I told him I'd back count for him. Just told him to start out the shoe with a low bet and I'd tell him when to increase it by kicking his stool. I'd tap him on the back (hand resting on the back of his chair while standing behind him) when I wanted him to lower his bet.

We did this the next shoe. It took forever to get through that shoe. The new dealer was stopped frequently by the pit boss to explain nuances of the dealer's role at the table so it was really a drag. I understand now the discussion we had here about slow dealers throwing rhythm off! As the shoe progressed to a little more than half way thru, the count got higher than -4 and I kicked the guy's chair. He bumped his bet but it wasn't enough so I kicked it again! He looked at me like I was crazy! But he stuck it out and won. It stayed high until the last couple of hands. He won more than he lost and when the smoke cleared and we were back at the coffee machine again, he said he'd won $105 on that shoe.

The next shoe, I sat at a chair on the empty table, not counting for him. However, I had tried to explain KO to him. I mean, how simple can it get? He went to his chair and tried to count but he was so lost after the first few hands! It was insane man! I have no idea how much he lost on that shoe, but after it was over, he had colored up and left the table. I asked him what happened and he said, "I don't know, I'd get a really good count but all that was falling was low cards. There at the beginning, all that was falling was face cards and it didn't take but 4 or 5 hands to get to a positive count!" Oh, My! Further discussion with him revealed that he had no idea how to work with negative numbers! I think I finally got it across to him that it was like reading a thermometer with the temp below zero. I could see a glimmer of a light bulb behind his eyes, but he left so I don't know if he will try to get it down or not!

Some people just need to stick with slot machines.
 
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TimeKeeper

Well-Known Member
#2
What is it about negative numbers that people don't understand? Why is it hard to go from mi4 to mi3 to mi4 to mi3 to mi2 to mi1 to 0 to 1 to 0?

I was never good at math, in fact, I failed Algebra II 2x in HS. But I can count down a deck of cards in about 35 seconds average. I know I need to get it down to 20 seconds before I can ever play in a casino, but it's not really hard.

I really wouldn't bother going out of your way for other people, Mikeaber. As you can see, they probably don't even really appreciate your help all that much anyway. And you don't want the eye in the sky kicking you out for helping someone you don't even know.
 

Gregory

Well-Known Member
#3
TimeKeeper said:
What is it about negative numbers that people don't understand? Why is it hard to go from mi4 to mi3 to mi4 to mi3 to mi2 to mi1 to 0 to 1 to 0?

I was never good at math, in fact, I failed Algebra II 2x in HS. But I can count down a deck of cards in about 35 seconds average. I know I need to get it down to 20 seconds before I can ever play in a casino, but it's not really hard.

I really wouldn't bother going out of your way for other people, Mikeaber. As you can see, they probably don't even really appreciate your help all that much anyway. And you don't want the eye in the sky kicking you out for helping someone you don't even know.
Erm ... probably learning to count cards IN A CASINO is not a ideal situation. Mike was helping out a fellow casino victim and I personally think it's the right thing to do. Might have been easier to just have him come here and study though. Unless he has no internet access of course.
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#4
In truth, most of the people I meet while playing BJ simply do not have a clue as to what goes on with BJ, nor do they want to know. They want to win, but are not willing to put any effort into acquiring the skills and knowledge to do so. I'm talking about the simple stuff, like knowing generally that a remaining deck that is rich in Faces is going to favor the player. Or for that matter, that the deck is made up of 30% Faces and every other card represents roughly 7% of the deck. And when you try to explain anything about the game and mention a percentage, you can almost see them flip the Brain Switch to "off."

As for the guy I was counting for....I had nothing better to do. Couldn't play since there were no spots available. The folks down there know I will not play slot machines and are used to me hanging around and interacting with the players...helping them when asked. No "heat" problems there.

It is true that the Security guys tend to hang really close to the tables but they are actually just double checking the dealer's hand counts and betting payoffs. A few nights ago, I was sitting at the table playing (and counting for practice on that 6-deck shoe). I was in complete concentration on the play while trying to appear not to be. The Security critter had been standing right on my shoulder all night and I was trying to imagine him yanking me off the stool (added pressure and all that). Well, around mid-shoe, I feel hands on my neck and just about climbed up on table! It was my wife coming by to tell me she'd just won $250 on some slot machine but I thought it was that damned Guard!

That completely blew it for me for that shoe! The guard was doubled over laughing and the dealer had tears in her eyes and had to hit her "huffer" (asthma). Oh, it was funny okay....but I shouldn't have lost the damn count!
 

jimbiggs

Well-Known Member
#5
Mike, I ran into a similar problem the other night where I coudn't get a seat at a table. I was backcounting just in case someone tapped out and got up. The count went to a true count of +4 and the whole time I was thinking that I could just ask one of the players who seemed to know basic strategy to put one of my green chips on their stack, but I chickened out. I've seen a couple of asian women doing this with a group of friends, but they weren't counting.

The heat was minimal in this casino. Anybody know how the house would look at this? Would it be a bad idea? and more importantly, would it blow my cover?
 

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#6
jimbiggs said:
Mike, I ran into a similar problem the other night where I coudn't get a seat at a table. I was backcounting just in case someone tapped out and got up. The count went to a true count of +4 and the whole time I was thinking that I could just ask one of the players who seemed to know basic strategy to put one of my green chips on their stack, but I chickened out. I've seen a couple of asian women doing this with a group of friends, but they weren't counting.

The heat was minimal in this casino. Anybody know how the house would look at this? Would it be a bad idea? and more importantly, would it blow my cover?
I'm quite sure no one can give you a definitive answer to that one Jim. Things are so different in each casino. Missouri has state laws that would make it illegal to do anything like that (because of the loss limit of $500 every two hours, you cannot borrow chips or lent chips or money either). Many pit bosses do not want to put up with the potential delays and confrontations that would most likely happen when winning hands were split up. It would fall into the same category as "buying" someone's double down or split. I've played in casinos where they don't mind and in others where they strictly forbid it.
 

TimeKeeper

Well-Known Member
#7
Gregory said:
Erm ... probably learning to count cards IN A CASINO is not a ideal situation. Mike was helping out a fellow casino victim and I personally think it's the right thing to do. Might have been easier to just have him come here and study though. Unless he has no internet access of course.
I know, and I hope I didn't come across as unthoughtful there. It just sounded like that guy couldn't be helped.
 
#8
jimbiggs said:
Mike, I ran into a similar problem the other night where I coudn't get a seat at a table. I was backcounting just in case someone tapped out and got up. The count went to a true count of +4 and the whole time I was thinking that I could just ask one of the players who seemed to know basic strategy to put one of my green chips on their stack, but I chickened out. I've seen a couple of asian women doing this with a group of friends, but they weren't counting.

The heat was minimal in this casino. Anybody know how the house would look at this? Would it be a bad idea? and more importantly, would it blow my cover?
It would NOT blow your cover and you CAN do this if you are smooth and making friends with the ploppies. zg
 
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