Is banning perfect basic strategy players the Next Frontier?

[Vladimir Stupnisky]

Knowing that casinos aim to crush people financially, is it out of the realm of possibility that casinos will start backing off/banning/restricting bets of suspected Basic Strategy players? Considering that most pit bosses place the House Edge at 2 % for blackjack, they could theoretically get rid of/minimize the 1.5% they give up to perfect Basic Strategy players.

I ask this because the last time I doubled A8 vs. dealer 6, the dealer called out "Doubling soft 19!". If you are unfortunate enough to have a pit boss who knows basic strategy perfectly hear this, might he realize that the player knows more than just "to split Aces and 8s", as it were?

I know what a quagmire that would lead to as far as bosses analyzing players and their decisions, but don't forget the "playing decision analyzers" that some casinos have. If all casinos installed these at every table, this could be feasible, don't you think?

I am a "beyond Basic Strategy" player, as Renzy would term it, but why would a casino want me playing and not some hunch gambler?

Ploppies are still playing the 6-5 games and standing on their soft 17s elsewhere, so the casinos still have these goofs as customers.

Just thinking out loud here. What do you guys think?

 

[tthree]

They make money off BS players. Etables that analyze play are illegal in some jurisdictions.

 

[Friendo]

Don't overestimate these guys

We're safe - no casino executive would allocate the training budget to teach their pit bosses basic strategy. Most don't know it.

I have been treated like a doofus for surrendering 17 against an ace, hitting soft 18 against 9, and doubling A-8 against 6. Sure, sometimes the A-8 move makes them think I'm smart, but it's not much of a liability.

Management would have to be pretty stupid to ban basic strategy players - wait a minute ...

 

[Most Interesting Man]

Never

BS players are still profitable, unless they soak up more than their fair share of comps or drinks. It does not make economic sense to ban BS players unless the BS players were crowding out the lower-skilled hunch players. In that case it would be better for the casino to prioritize the more profitable players over the less profitable players, but not outright ban the less profitable ones. But how you play is only one factor in how profitable you are to the business. Your purchases and cost to service are additional factors that make calculating a customer's lifetime value more difficult. APs get banned because they are unprofitable, or so the thinking goes.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

Friendo makes a good point—casinos would have to be able to identify BS players to give them the boot! Or would they have to rely on a surveillance employee with a BS chart (probably for the wrong rule set anyway)? Good luck finding anyone in the pit that knows correct BS!

 

[WRX]

If I owned a casino, I certainly would back off anyone playing perfect basic strategy, unless his bets were large enough to generate a profit, probably a minimum of $50 a hand or so. A $5 bettor playing perfect basic strategy isn't going to lose enough to pay to keep the lights on, unless you're speaking of 6:5 crapjack or some other awful game. At low betting levels, a perfect basic strategy player WILL soak up more than his fair share of comps and drinks.

However, a casino needs to consider the cost of creating an ugly scene in front of other players, some of whom could be more heavily-losing friends or family of the player. But I would certainly comp-ban such a player--which a lot of Strip casinos already do, in very crude fashion, by refusing to rate anyone playing under $25 a hand.

Obviously, there should be exceptions for players who also play and lose at other games, or who pay high prices for their own hotel rooms, or who spend a lot at the restaurants.

 

[alwayssplitaces]

They sell basic strategy cards in gift shops. A lot of people think the casinos "wrote the book" so they justify their deviations from BS by saying that.

 

[Craps Master]

Rather than ban basic strategy players, they're just going to continue to shave points off of basic strategy's value. Multiple decks, H17, nDAS, d10, CSMs, 6/5, unfavorable blackjack variants, etc. have all whittled down the value of basic strategy. At some point they'll reach a figure they can live with. I'm guessing it will be something in the neighborhood of a 1.5% average house edge across all blackjack tables for perfect basic strategy, to put it in line with craps and baccarat. I don't know how long this is going to take, but I don't see the trend reversing; it's only a matter of time. So you guys who enjoy counting cards had better get out there and pound out some EV while you still can.

In the meantime, the occasional basic strategist may get the boot, but it's not going to be casino policy.

 

[zengrifter]

If I owned a casino, I certainly would back off anyone playing perfect basic strategy, unless his bets were large enough to generate a profit, probably a minimum of $50 a hand or so. A $5 bettor playing perfect basic strategy isn't going to lose enough to pay to keep the lights on.

Most BS players overbet, so they are assured of losing, right? zg

 

[Shoofly]

I ask this because the last time I doubled A8 vs. dealer 6, the dealer called out "Doubling soft 19!". If you are unfortunate enough to have a pit boss who knows basic strategy perfectly hear this, might he realize that the player knows more than just "to split Aces and 8s", as it were?

You're giving these people too much credit. They won't think the player knows more. They will think he is stupid.

 

[Machinist]

If I owned a casino, I certainly would back off anyone playing perfect basic strategy, unless his bets were large enough to generate a profit, probably a minimum of $50 a hand or so. A $5 bettor playing perfect basic strategy isn't going to lose enough to pay to keep the lights on, unless you're speaking of 6:5 crapjack or some other awful game. At low betting levels, a perfect basic strategy player WILL soak up more than his fair share of comps and drinks.

However, a casino needs to consider the cost of creating an ugly scene in front of other players, some of whom could be more heavily-losing friends or family of the player. But I would certainly comp-ban such a player--which a lot of Strip casinos already do, in very crude fashion, by refusing to rate anyone playing under $25 a hand.

Obviously, there should be exceptions for players who also play and lose at other games, or who pay high prices for their own hotel rooms, or who spend a lot at the restaurants.

Let's not forget that most casino patrons bring a wife, SO, friend or friends with them!!! I'd hate to lose all their friends action at the slots by over reacting to a ploppy bj player.

Mac

 

[QFIT]

I ask this because the last time I doubled A8 vs. dealer 6, the dealer called out "Doubling soft 19!".

First time I saw this was over 30 years ago. Not unusual or new.

 

[EarthBowser]

I've always been extremely surprised at how many casino employees have no idea what basic strategy is except the most basic things or how many superstitions they have. Even with some of the higher ups who should be all about the probability and the numbers can be really superstitious and not have a clue. That being said, there still are a lot of pits and floors that do know. I think a lot of them get disillusioned with their coworkers and will actually be surprised when they see a player playing perfect basic strategy.

I would actually assume they announced you doubling your soft 19 as a way of making fun of you to their coworkers, thinking you were being dumb. I see that happening a lot. I've never really heard of any place making it a policy to announce any basic strategy move.

 

[tthree]

I've always been extremely surprised at how many casino employees have no idea what basic strategy is except the most basic things or how many superstitions they have. Even with some of the higher ups who should be all about the probability and the numbers can be really superstitious and not have a clue. That being said, there still are a lot of pits and floors that do know. I think a lot of them get disillusioned with their coworkers and will actually be surprised when they see a player playing perfect basic strategy.

I would actually assume they announced you doubling your soft 19 as a way of making fun of you to their coworkers, thinking you were being dumb. I see that happening a lot. I've never really heard of any place making it a policy to announce any basic strategy move.

The only game Doubling soft 19 v 6 is BS for is SD. They call out unusual play to prevent shot taking. This is were after the fact you say you didn't make the move. I am not sure how you could argue that after pushing out more money but the dealers are instructed to call out stupid plays for this reason. The players argument is usually, no one would do that so obviously I am not that stupid. Most jurisdictions (at least the ones I am familiar with) have procedures that are followed in this case so the PB has little latitude to use his judgement. By calling out the play he can use discretion after okaying the action.

 

[Friendo]

The only game Doubling soft 19 v 6 is BS for is SD.

Nope.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

This post is ridiculous. You think casinos are going to start backing off people who are playing WITHOUT an edge?

 

[johndoe]

The only game Doubling soft 19 v 6 is BS for is SD.

Uh, no. It's BS for H17 in DD and 6D/8D games. Pretty much all the most common games in the world.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

This post is ridiculous. You think casinos are going to start backing off people who are playing WITHOUT an edge?

Hell yes. Some small casinos will back anyone off for significant bet variation. They figure bet variation is uncommon enough in their customer base that it is easier to assume an unknown player is "up to something" and back him off than to figure out what he is doing and back him off only if he is playing with an advantage. And many people do not know the difference between "easier' and 'better."

 

[tthree]

Uh, no. It's BS for H17 in DD and 6D/8D games. Pretty much all the most common games in the world.

Still avoiding that H17 stuff like the plague. I guess one day the better and closer options to my home will dry up and I will have to learn those pesky H17 plays.

 

[paddywhack]

Still avoiding that H17 stuff like the plague. I guess one day the better and closer options to my home will dry up and I will have to learn those pesky H17 plays.

They're not that terrible. Not like a soft 17 shows up every hand for the dealer. Add LS and it helps a great deal.