Is the game of BJ soon to be extinct???

[MJ1]

With conditions in casinos continuing to deteriorate, how much longer will the game continue to be beatable?

H17, 6:5, lousy pen, crowded tables, 8 decks, NMS, it seems like conditions just get worse and worse. What is next, BJ pays 21:20?

Even in Vegas, the Mecca of gambling, very few casinos still offer the golden rules of 3:2, S17, DA2, LS, RSA where the table minimum is <= $25. Most visitors in LV just cannot afford the exorbitant table minimums for these excellent rules that most casinos levy.

Many APs would argue that BJ is already dead, and is not even a shadow of that it used to be. Legend has it that there used to be a time when house rules in AC gave the BS player an edge off the top!

MJ

 

[shadroch]

The entire world is due to end in 2012, so don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[PrinceDragon]

The entire world is due to end in 2012, so don't sweat the small stuff.

Damn,I've predicted the Cubs to win the World series in 2014.

 

[PrinceDragon]

With conditions in casinos continuing to deteriorate, how much longer will the game continue to be beatable?

As long as the game is being offer by the casinos.

You just need to do your share of studying and hunting.

P.D.

 

[Tarzan]

Friends Don't Let Friends Play at Harrah's

Stop even LOOKING for a blackjack game in any Harrah's owned casino and that will narrow down the field of places to look for a more reasonable game that is not so ridiculously unbeatable that you shouldn't even try to bother. Want the worst blackjack rules you can muster? Go to a Harrah's casino!!!

The best that can be hoped for is that casinos try to remain competitive and not try to gouge out more than they already are out of the public at large. Otherwise a portion (possibly even a LARGE portion) of their customer base will find other recreational outlets that they would find more rewarding, such as stamp-collecting, Star-Trek conventions or judging wet t-shirt contests...

 

[creeping panther]

Mj1

With conditions in casinos continuing to deteriorate, how much longer will the game continue to be beatable?

H17, 6:5, lousy pen, crowded tables, 8 decks, NMS, it seems like conditions just get worse and worse. What is next, BJ pays 21:20?

Even in Vegas, the Mecca of gambling, very few casinos still offer the golden rules of 3:2, S17, DA2, LS, RSA where the table minimum is <= $25. Most visitors in LV just cannot afford the exorbitant table minimums for these excellent rules that most casinos levy.

Many APs would argue that BJ is already dead, and is not even a shadow of that it used to be. Legend has it that there used to be a time when house rules in AC gave the BS player an edge off the top!

MJ

There are games better than that for $3 mins.

Ya, if the uneducated keeps playing anything put before them most games will just be trash.

CP

 

[SystemsTrader]

For card counters, YES

The days are definitely numbered for card counters MJ1. In my short playing career I've also been amazed at how fast the games have deteriorated both in Vegas and elsewhere. CSM's are rearing their ugly heads in so many stores now and replacing the bad 8 deckers they used before. Once the patents run out on a lot of those CSM's, the casinos will fill their tables with cheap knock offs. But of even bigger concern is the electronic tables which is the next step for casinos. This will be the death of advantage play as casinos exchange pits of tables for pits of electronic games, now the casinos will no longer worry about the cat and mouse games with APs and they can finally lay off all those annoying dealers, and pit staff which require salaries, benefits and who take sick days and holidays. The game of blackjack will be like playing a slot machine with the odds guaranteed for the house.

 

[daddybo]

The days are definitely numbered for card counters MJ1. In my short playing career I've also been amazed at how fast the games have deteriorated both in Vegas and elsewhere. CSM's are rearing their ugly heads in so many stores now and replacing the bad 8 deckers they used before. Once the patents run out on a lot of those CSM's, the casinos will fill their tables with cheap knock offs. But of even bigger concern is the electronic tables which is the next step for casinos. This will be the death of advantage play as casinos exchange pits of tables for pits of electronic games, now the casinos will no longer worry about the cat and mouse games with APs and they can finally lay off all those annoying dealers, and pit staff which require salaries, benefits and who take sick days and holidays. The game of blackjack will be like playing a slot machine with the odds guaranteed for the house.

Do you really think machines can't be beaten?

 

[SystemsTrader]

Yes

Do you really think machines can't be beaten?

Are you an AP slot player? Didn't think so. I'm not saying they will never be beaten, I'm sure there will be some guy somewhere who finds a glitch in the machine but for the masses there is no way they will be beaten like card counters have beaten the current game.

 

[Sonny]

I'm not saying they [slot machines] will never be beaten, I'm sure there will be some guy somewhere who finds a clitch in the machine but for the masses there is no way they will be beaten like card counters have beaten the current game.

And even when you find an advantage, you get arrested!

"Gaming Control Board agents arrested a man in July for allegedly exploiting a glitch that allowed him to multiply the money he inserted into slot machines and cash out with 10 times that amount. With no apparent accomplices, John Kane, according to the board, ripped off the Silverton and other casinos for tens of thousands of dollars."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/oct/19/stealing-house/

It's interesting how the act of "exploiting a glitch" is considered AP by us but cheating by the NGC.

-Sonny-

 

[shadroch]

Are you an AP slot player? Didn't think so. I'm not saying they will never be beaten, I'm sure there will be some guy somewhere who finds a clitch in the machine but for the masses there is no way they will be beaten like card counters have beaten the current game.

I recently met an advantage slot player. According to him, there are slots that can be beaten on a regular basis. One example he gave was a game called S&H Stamps or something like that. It's a reel machine and everytime a stamp appears on a reel, it is saved in a book. When the book is filled, a bonus round appears. To the casual player, this bonus appears to be random.
Right after he explained it to me, we went to a bank of these machines and two of the six were almost full. Putting in a $100 in one machine while I sat at the other, it took three spins at $4.50 each to fill the book and get a bonus round that paid him $63 and he claimed it was a poor bonus round.
Next machine took about ten spins and he cashed out for $136 for a $99 overall profit in less than ten minutes. The other four machines were low in stamps so we skipped them. We walked next door and none of the four machines were primed, so we skipped them. About ten minutes later,we found one of four machines ripe for the plucking and he walked away with a $20 profit.
From what I gathered, there are about a dozen or so slots that offer these types of bonuses, and his biggest problem is avoiding similar advantage players as he claims some are very aggressive.
He has a daily route in Vegas where he walks several miles over a few hours and claims it's an excellant part time job and great exercise.

 

[sabre]

Banking slots were all the rage years ago. Now they're kind of going the way of the Dodo. But yes, there are still some around ...

 

[MJ1]

Sadly, I think a lot of you are missing the point. The fact is that BJ is becoming more and more a waste of time. What was once a lucrative enterprise seems like it is rapidly deteriorating. While there will always be a select few who can exploit an AP opportunity, the future of BJ for the masses of counters looks quite dismal.

Who cares if 1 in 10000 finds some remote opportunity to make 10 bucks. The other 9999 counters lost their chance. I guess you either understand my point in this thread or you don't.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

There's a slot bank in CT I'm aware of that has several progressive lines. The bottom one starts at $25 and increases at a rate of a few dollars a minute. Seems like there should be a point where it goes +EV and it's real easy to sit in one of those seats and not push the button until it's ready. Problem is calculating the returns on these machines, being they're all RNG you don't know what the coefficients for each payoff are and there might not be any logic to them.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Sadly, I think a lot of you are missing the point. The fact is that BJ is becoming more and more a waste of time. What was once a lucrative enterprise seems like it is rapidly deteriorating. While there will always be a select few who can exploit an AP opportunity, the future of BJ for the masses of counters looks quite dismal.

Who cares if 1 in 10000 finds some remote opportunity to make 10 bucks. The other 9999 counters lost their chance. I guess you either understand my point in this thread or you don't.

What are you talking about? The games evolve, we evolve. (Monkeys know all about evolution.) They cut pen and add a sidebet to make up for the loss, we exploit the sidebet. They make a table NMS, we rework our spread for Wong-out instead of Wong-in.

The old guys who remember BJ being dealt in LV from a single deck dealt down to the last card all cursed and said counting was obsolete now that they've started dealing from 4 decks. Now we hammer 8 deck games and carnival games, and lots of successful AP's have never even played a single deck game. Some of us beat up on 6:5 games. We are more intelligent than the casino executives and we will always be a step ahead of them.

 

[sabre]

I guess you either understand my point in this thread or you don't.

I understand your point. I just think it's incorrect. I see fewer CSMs today than when they were first introduced. I've seen an increase in the number of mega casinos which tolerate huge spreads and bets. I've seen an increase in the number of error-prone, poorly trained dealers. I don't see BJ being worse today than it was 5 years ago. I don't have any reason to think it will be worse 5 years from now. But time will tell ...

 

[SleightOfHand]

The days are definitely numbered for card counters MJ1. In my short playing career I've also been amazed at how fast the games have deteriorated both in Vegas and elsewhere. CSM's are rearing their ugly heads in so many stores now and replacing the bad 8 deckers they used before. Once the patents run out on a lot of those CSM's, the casinos will fill their tables with cheap knock offs. But of even bigger concern is the electronic tables which is the next step for casinos. This will be the death of advantage play as casinos exchange pits of tables for pits of electronic games, now the casinos will no longer worry about the cat and mouse games with APs and they can finally lay off all those annoying dealers, and pit staff which require salaries, benefits and who take sick days and holidays. The game of blackjack will be like playing a slot machine with the odds guaranteed for the house.

I wonder... I hear that ploppies do not like to play CSMs because they feel the flow of the cards are ruined. Wouldn't that same idea be felt with the electronic bj games?

 

[sabre]

I wonder... I hear that ploppies do not like to play CSMs because they feel the flow of the cards are ruined. Wouldn't that same idea be felt with the electronic bj games?

Electronic BJ won't be popular except for low minimums. People like playing table games with real cards and a real dealer.

Look at poker. Poker Pro has created a really solid and high quality electronic table option. Excalibur tried it out for over a year, but just moved back to a live room. No other poker room on the strip even tried. Mohegan sun had these tables for awhile, but then reopened their live room and got rid of them. People want the real thing. Shufflemaster's electronic BJ isn't a serious threat to live BJ.

 

[21forme]

Last week as I walked thru the HET joints in LV, I noted players at their electronic BJ games. As I kept walking, I then saw the 8D, H17, 6:5 tables full of patrons. Is the electronic game the lesser of 2 evils as it pays 3:2 on BJ?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Last week as I walked thru the HET joints in LV, I noted players at their electronic BJ games. As I kept walking, I then saw the 8D, H17, 6:5 tables full of patrons. Is the electronic game the lesser of 2 evils as it pays 3:2 on BJ?

Absolutely, if they have normal rules on the electronic game, and if they treat electronic BJ players like other machine players a basic strategy player on those machines is doing just fine. Like a full pay VP machine, but with far lower variance.