K-O count, 4 decks information.

[blazin22]

I have read alot of information on the K-O system, most of the information is concentrated on 1,2,6 and 8 decks. The best game I have locally with good penetration here in england and with the best rules is a 4 deck game.

I would like to know what IRC I should use for 4 decks, is it -12?
I'd guess then the key count is -2, what would be the best time to put on the max bet? +4?

Thanks in Advance.

 

[SystemsTrader]

The formula for the IRC is 4-(No of decks x 4)
So yes you are correct the your IRC should start at -12. The key count depends on the rules and pen you are playing with but an average would be to start the key at -1. Your max bet also depends on different factors like your bankroll, pen and rules. But using +4 as your max bet is a good starting point. You should consider buying the book if you don't already have it.

 

[blazin22]

The dealers are using different penetration, but some dealers I have identified as consistantly cutting off 1 deck or less. giving me 75% of the cards to play with. The rules are DOA, DAS, Stand soft 17, No Peek, No surrender. Split Aces one card only.

The strategy engine comes back with a 0.49% advantage for the casino.

Bank roll is £5,000. Have done some small trial runs playing small and getting used to the casino environment while counting. K0 is a very easy counting system and doesn't leave me with a headache. I have blatantly wonged in after backcounting, didn't arrouse even a slightest hint of heat, perhaps being asian helps a bit.

Plan on building my bankroll to 10,000 before I go for the casino's jugular.
I've been lurking on these forums for a while now, and from all the stories I've read unless youve got a huge bankroll and use a big bet spread, all the time and effort is probably not worth the money you can make.

I am lucky in that I have many casinos in this area, so I am prepared to use and abuse the local one for learning purposes and don't mind if i get barred.

 

[callipygian]

This is off-topic, but here are my two cents:

unless youve got a huge bankroll and use a big bet spread, all the time and effort is probably not worth the money you can make.

It is my opinion that the time and effort you put into card counting can never be worth the money you make. The basic premise is bankroll - assuming you didn't inherit or find a large sum of money, you presumably worked your ass off at your "real" job to put together a bankroll. Your bankroll is small compared with your wages; your expected value from card counting is small compared to your bankroll. Thus, unless you've been saving up for 20 years to play blackjack, you're earning much more at your "real" job than at you can at card counting. You probably have at least a $50,000/yr ($25/hr) job if you have a $10,000 bankroll ($5-$10/hr EV on card counting).

Furthermore, let's be realistic. Below average dealers can make $50,000 a year with little variance; an exceptional card counter might be able to match that in value but not in variance. Given the amount of time that a pro spends in a casino, they're better off dealing than being dealt to if they want to earn money.

I don't understand this fascination with professional play. Have as much fun as you can counting cards - and for most people, winning money is fun - and when it gets boring, tedious, or otherwise undesirable, walk away.

 

[Doofus]

What is the optimum spread for a 4 deck game? I know that SD is 1-4, DD is 1-8, and play-all 6D it's about 1-16. Does that suggest that 4 decks ought to be about 1-12?

 

[blazin22]

I pretty much have this down pat, all I need now is the suggested deviations from basic strategy, given these rules and number of decks. Someone care to chip in with an illustrious 18 for this situation?
I've been doing some digging around and found this table for four decks,

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/i18index.htm (Archive copy)

Trouble is the counting system is HI-LO, how to convert the HI-LO counts to the corresponding KO counts?
Also what effect does the number of decks have on the advantage of the index plays?
If there are fewer decks in play does index play have more of an effect? How much more of an advantage is playing with four decks as opposed to six when using indexes?

 

[sagefr0g]

I pretty much have this down pat, all I need now is the suggested deviations from basic strategy, given these rules and number of decks. Someone care to chip in with an illustrious 18 for this situation?
I've been doing some digging around and found this table for four decks,

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/tcindex/i18index.htm (Archive copy)

Trouble is the counting system is HI-LO, how to convert the HI-LO counts to the corresponding KO counts?
Also what effect does the number of decks have on the advantage of the index plays?
If there are fewer decks in play does index play have more of an effect? How much more of an advantage is playing with four decks as opposed to six when using indexes?

do you have Knock Out Blackjack by Vancura & Fuchs? they have a section in there on KO Preferred that i believe would answer a lot of your questions.

 

[Doofus]

What is the optimum spread for a 4 deck game? I know that SD is 1-4, DD is 1-8, and play-all 6D it's about 1-16. Does that suggest that 4 decks ought to be about 1-12?

Anybody? Anybody? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[sicharlton]

The best game I have locally with good penetration here in england and with the best rules is a 4 deck game.

Whereabouts are you in England? Which casino you using? I'm in NE, Newcastle

Si

 

[blazin22]

Whereabouts are you in England? Which casino you using? I'm in NE, Newcastle

Si

People are getting upset when I mention individual casinos (good ones) so i'm not going to do that anymore. I've played in Newcastle before, you have a Gala which isn't a very good six deck game, banatynes casinos has closed, and you have Aspers at the Gate which isn't bad, but tends to be full of ploppies. I think i've been to every casino in England. Except Aspers in wales :/

 

[sicharlton]

Oh O.K fair enough

No Gala in Newcastle boss I played a little in a Gala Casino in Leeds, that was at the very start of my reading on counting. I know what you mean about Aspers, thats my only local choice really. £10 min shoe games generally.

I think i've been to every casino in England. Except Aspers in wales

Wales isn't in England.... :laugh:

 

[blazin22]

Oh O.K fair enough

No Gala in Newcastle boss I played a little in a Gala Casino in Leeds, that was at the very start of my reading on counting. I know what you mean about Aspers, thats my only local choice really. £10 min shoe games generally.


Wales isn't in England.... :laugh:

I Meant Grosvenors, not gala. Er fair point about wales. But generally you should avoid Gala, the dealers consistently give crap penetration.

 

[sicharlton]

I would love nothing more than to go back to Grosvenor and reclaim some of the funds I've lost their in my days of knowing nothing about Blackjack They're all CSM now though

Sorry, I'll let this get back on topic!

 

[SD Padres]

This is off-topic, but here are my two cents:



It is my opinion that the time and effort you put into card counting can never be worth the money you make. The basic premise is bankroll - assuming you didn't inherit or find a large sum of money, you presumably worked your ass off at your "real" job to put together a bankroll. Your bankroll is small compared with your wages; your expected value from card counting is small compared to your bankroll. Thus, unless you've been saving up for 20 years to play blackjack, you're earning much more at your "real" job than at you can at card counting. You probably have at least a $50,000/yr ($25/hr) job if you have a $10,000 bankroll ($5-$10/hr EV on card counting).

Furthermore, let's be realistic. Below average dealers can make $50,000 a year with little variance; an exceptional card counter might be able to match that in value but not in variance. Given the amount of time that a pro spends in a casino, they're better off dealing than being dealt to if they want to earn money.

I don't understand this fascination with professional play. Have as much fun as you can counting cards - and for most people, winning money is fun - and when it gets boring, tedious, or otherwise undesirable, walk away.

Because you are not working for the man! :grin: