Lack of counters to catch

[Baberuth]

I have yet to spot a counter in the eastern Indian Casinos. When I visit Vegas, I may spot one during a week stay. Is this the norm? If it is there is, too much time is spent trying to catch a counter on the main floor.

East - At 25 min. tables (2 & 8 deck) I would think I would spot more. I certainly have seen large bets, but not with the count.
Is this the norm? The pits are rarely doing anything else but evaluating comps and checking your buy ins, change and color out. I guess with the lack of counters, they really don’t spend too much time looking for them. Maybe in the high limit rooms. Even the 50 min. tables which I sometimes join have no counters and little pit attention. They may check you out for a few hands at first, but then they forget you. I can play for 90 minutes as long as I don’t win more than 1500 without any problem.

Vegas- I might see 2 APs in a week while playing 25 min. tables (2 deck). They seem to check you out much more, but a good cover will allow you to play for a short session (30 min.) without a problem. They also check you more when you begin.

 

[moo321]

Every time I go to Vegas I run into them. In the Midwest and East Coast, I've never seen a counter, and I've seen only 2 down south.

 

[bigplayer]

Every time I go to Vegas I run into them. In the Midwest and East Coast, I've never seen a counter, and I've seen only 2 down south.

I was on the road for over 200 days last year and rarely see anyone else counting cards. So much for all that money spent on skills checks. The whole counter threat is incredibly overblown.

 

[paddywhack]

I was on the road for over 200 days last year and rarely see anyone else counting cards. So much for all that money spent on skills checks. The whole counter threat is incredibly overblown.

Subtract from that the number of counters that aren't really a threat to the casino's bottom line at all, and in fact, will probably add to their profits, and the number is much smaller.

All that time paying attention, skills checks, crazy shuffle procedures, and other things to slow down the game times the number of total tables and 24 hours a day costs the casino industry well more than would be lost to an average AP. It might be worth it if bigplayer's around :laugh: but for us mere mortals.......overkill

 

[blackriver]

Isn't that also what we would see if they were doing am reduce job? seems parallel to saying that vaccines that useless because I rarely see anyone with polio or plague or whatever. Why are we so worried about proliferation of nuclear arms. I don't see any terrorists with nukes....

 

[blacksheep]

The whole counter threat is incredibly overblown.

I agree with this. And with the others who say they rarely, if ever, encounter any others that are clearly counters or other AP's. I have been playing the same fairly large Indian casino that I started out at down south for over a year now, sometimes 3 or 4 days a week, and I think I may have come across one or two. The first was a young black woman who was just minding her own business, not talking or drawning much attention to herself - except from this particular dealer who seems to have a hard-on for identifying counters (I've actually seen him call out a guy to the pit that he thought was backcounting). He could've just been trying to flirt with her but I think he was also trying to throw her off. I can't recall her betting patterns but I know she was sitting out every negative count that came up. The other was a guy that came in w/a pile of green, fairly quickly turned every single one of them to black (a stack probably at least 20 high), and then by the time I got up to leave was working on turning that stack to purple. He was almost always playing only 1 hand but I watched him once suddenly spread to two and catch part of a cluster of aces that had been coming out pretty consistently. He may have been counting.

The closest thing to these was a guy a couple of weeks ago who leaned in to me as he was coloring up to leave and said something like: "For what it's worth, I can tell you that there's an excess of aces left in the stack. There have only been 5 so far and with this many cards out (pointing to the discard tray), there should have been 9. That's about all I keep track of." I took this as a bad sign because he had obviously pegged me for a counter. So guess I need to work on my cover some more.

 

[blackriver]

I was on the road for over 200 days last year and rarely see anyone else counting cards. So much for all that money spent on skills checks. The whole counter threat is incredibly overblown.

But maybe these people got picked off after their first session.

I know I played with some guy in chicago who was so obvious. He didn't display any camo while I was there. if Id only seen the movie 21 ida been like "omgomg u win every time, am I right? Whats kevin spacey like in real life?"

 

[Baberuth]

The closest thing to these was a guy a couple of weeks ago who leaned in to me as he was coloring up to leave and said something like: "For what it's worth, I can tell you that there's an excess of aces left in the stack. There have only been 5 so far and with this many cards out (pointing to the discard tray), there should have been 9. That's about all I keep track of." I took this as a bad sign because he had obviously pegged me for a counter. So guess I need to work on my cover some more.

It is easy for an AP to make another AP, no matter the cover, but he should keep it to himself. The cover is to keep the pit off your trail so a call never happens so you are probably fine.
The only AP I encountered at an Indian casino was leaving the table at the same time I was in negative counts and pressing in plus. We chatted about evrything, but not BJ. He had an excellent game plan. Our chat actually added to our cover. Athough I enjoyed our visit, I passed on sitting with him again.

 

[jaygruden]

I was on the road for over 200 days last year and rarely see anyone else counting cards. So much for all that money spent on skills checks. The whole counter threat is incredibly overblown.

In 225 playing hours this year (all on east coast) I only spotted one other counter and he was so obvious. A young newbie who was wonging. I'm sitting at a table and he is standing behind me for the first 15-20 hands of the shoe (6 deck) and the count starts to rise. He buys in for 1K and plays a few green and we are both winning for next 4-5 hands. Then count drops quickly into the red. He sits out saying to the dealer "I think I'll sit out this one....I'm superstitious". He sits out 3-4 hands and the count climbs again. He jumps in for 2-3 hands saying "I feel lucky". When the count drops again he colors up after going ahead by maybe $150.00 and walks.

It was comical listening to the others at the table including the dealer bitch about him after he left. "jumping in and out and messing up the flow of the cards." Even the PB commented about how odd it was that he bought in for so much, played so little, jumping in and out, and then left so quickly. No one had a clue that he was counting but it was so blatant. It made me feel safer in this store.

On the other hand, there a lot of people on these boards who claim to play on East Coast (and many of the same stores) so maybe most are just very good actors who use good camo so that even other counters can't tell?

 

[Gamblor]

On the other hand, there a lot of people on these boards who claim to play on East Coast (and many of the same stores) so maybe most are just very good actors who use good camo so that even other counters can't tell?

There are APs out there doing other things besides counting that counters could not detect.

But in general, its easy for an experienced counter to detect another couner, even with heavy camo - I've seen one or two. An inexperienced counter would have difficulty catching an experienced counter with cover.

However, the fact you've seen so few counters isn't odd, I could go hundreds of hours and not see another counter. They are just that rare, and some casinos do spend a laughable amount of time and resources trying to thwart counters.

 

[Friendo]

There aren't many around

I keep watch over betting levels and competent play at the table: hitting A-7 against 9 gets my attention real fast. I get suspicious immediately upon seeing a self-interested rise or fall in betting as the shoe composition changes.

So I have been on red alert a couple dozen times. But I have only been right once. It made me sick to see such greedy sleaze.

It's disgusting to me that these cheaters are out there, taking advantage of honest casinos and gamblers, leaving ploppies to suck up the negative cards when the shoe goes south.

From now on, I'm turning every counter I see into the pit boss.

 

[winnawinna]

I used to play at the large Indian casinos until I was banned. [



QUOTE=Friendo;254944]I keep watch over betting levels and competent play at the table: hitting A-7 against 9 gets my attention real fast. I get suspicious immediately upon seeing a self-interested rise or fall in betting as the shoe composition changes.

So I have been on red alert a couple dozen times. But I have only been right once. It made me sick to see such greedy sleaze.

It's disgusting to me that these cheaters are out there, taking advantage of honest casinos and gamblers, leaving ploppies to suck up the negative cards when the shoe goes south.

From now on, I'm turning every counter I see into the pit boss.[/QUOTE]

 

[NAP]

hitting A-7 against 9 gets my attention real fast.

By the way, how terrible is it that a correct basic strategy play can get you pegged as a counter? Sometimes I wish ploppies weren't so awful at the game they are addicted to.

 

[psyduck]

It's disgusting to me that these cheaters are out there, taking advantage of honest casinos and gamblers, leaving ploppies to suck up the negative cards when the shoe goes south.

So what? The ploppies I encounter just keep winning and winning and winning!

 

[AR Nick]

I'm surprised to hear that there seem to be so few counters at the casinos y'all frequent. At my home store in NorCal, I'll share a table with a counter at least every other session. The ones around me are so obvious it almost makes me feel stupid for using any camo at all. I'm talking about the type of folks who will have a betting ramp and follow it mechanically, completely forsaking any fluidity or eccentricity for the sake of not being obvious (as if the baseball caps aren't enough).

I remember one time when I was sharing a table with a counting couple. They were sitting at first base and I was last to act (third base seat was empty). Dealer had an ace up and the shoe was so saturated with tens and faces that the insurance bet was a must. I knew the couple knew it by the looks on their faces when the dealer asked them for insurance, but both declined, a grudging tone accompanying their answers. The dealer gets to me; my hand is just as much a turd sandwich as those of the other two. Not giving up the chance, however, I show my worthless cards to the dealer, smile thinly, and say, "I know you've got it," before placing my bet in the insurance band. As soon as I do, both the others throw (yes, literally) their chips into the insurance band as quickly as they can, the girl shouting "oh my God, I, like, totally feel it too," in a manner that would make a basement porn actress seem like an Academy Award winner.

The dealer did indeed have a ten in the hole and we all got paid. I might have been upset at them piggybacking off of my carefully crafted image, but after the dealer turned over, the girl, clearly high off of her victory, laid it on really thick, shouting for the next minute about how she "just felt it." This got the attention of a nearby floorperson who spent the rest of the game watching the two of them very closely, a poorly masked scowl sitting on his face throughout. I don't know whether his presence was a coincidence or whether she really did eat my heat for that one. Either way, the paranoid Murphyist in me imagined the whole table now being watched by the eye, so I waited a few hands for the count to drop, took my winnings, and left after that.

I've only ever seen one very natural yet incredibly proficient counter in my short time. Rather, I've only managed to recognize one. But as for the ones that read an online article about Hi-Lo and ran to the casinos with all their money, they're a dime a dozen around here.

 

[jaygruden]

Not as many counters as we think?

I have yet to spot a counter in the eastern Indian Casinos. When I visit Vegas, I may spot one during a week stay. Is this the norm? If it is there is, too much time is spent trying to catch a counter on the main floor.

East - At 25 min. tables (2 & 8 deck) I would think I would spot more. I certainly have seen large bets, but not with the count.
Is this the norm? The pits are rarely doing anything else but evaluating comps and checking your buy ins, change and color out. I guess with the lack of counters, they really don’t spend too much time looking for them. Maybe in the high limit rooms. Even the 50 min. tables which I sometimes join have no counters and little pit attention. They may check you out for a few hands at first, but then they forget you. I can play for 90 minutes as long as I don’t win more than 1500 without any problem.

Vegas- I might see 2 APs in a week while playing 25 min. tables (2 deck). They seem to check you out much more, but a good cover will allow you to play for a short session (30 min.) without a problem. They also check you more when you begin.

Several years old, but an interesting statistic nonetheless..........

“Blackjack is the most popular casino table game. It became so in the late 1960’s, in large part due to the publication of one book, Ed Thorp’s Beat the Dealer. Blackjack wrestled the laurels from craps, when Thorp showed that people who played the cards right – and counted them! – could get a slight edge over the house. Has such a revelation been devastating to the casinos? No. On the contrary, of the 53 million Americans who make more than 350 million casino visits each year, there are only 1,100 known card counters! That is approximately 1 card counter for every 53 thousand casino players.(I got these statistics from AGA president Frank Fahrenkopf at the Global Gaming Expo in September 2002 and from the Griffin Agency, the detective agency that is responsible for “protecting” the casino against the big bad card counters.) Indeed, for the millions of players out there, blackjack is a game that sucks their bankrolls dry and leaves them wondering why they aren’t winning.”
- Frank Scoblete, Author, Casino Gambling, 2003