Legality & Penalties for US Online Gambling

[The DogHermit]

I live up in the northeast and make weekly Blackjack forays to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun in CT - grinding really, no big money stuff but it gives me a fair amount of extra income. I play by basic strategy, not a counter.

I may be moving soon to a state where there are no casinos remotely close enough to drive to, and this would mean no more extra money. Online gaming has never really seemed particularly attractive, but it soon may be my only recourse.

What specifically does the law say about US Citizens gambling online? http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3708&highlight=legal said that there's no prohibition against actual gaming, but there is for out-of-country banks to accept US funds, which makes sense from a laundering point of view.

My questions are:

1. IS it illegal to transmit funds to or from the banking apparatus of an online casino willing to accept US players?

2. If YES, what happens if you are caught doing this? It's a bad time to be labeled a money laundering terrorist, especially for a couple thousand dollars.

Thanks for any and all help - tDH

 

[gibsonlp33stl]

How do you make money playing BS with no counting? Is it all through comps?

 

[moo321]

It is not illegal to gamble online, nor to transfer money. As long as you're not betting sports, another illegal game, or live in a state where it is illegal.

However, no casinos accept US players any more.

 

[EasyRhino]

However, no casinos accept US players any more.

Correction, few do. And even fewer reputable ones.

 

[Kasi]

My questions are:

1. IS it illegal to transmit funds to or from the banking apparatus of an online casino willing to accept US players?

2. If YES, what happens if you are caught doing this? It's a bad time to be labeled a money laundering terrorist, especially for a couple thousand dollars.

#1. Not for you, just for the banks doing the transferring.

#2. Nothing will legally happen to you. They will go after the bank who transmitted the money. What happens to you is, since banks don't want to piss off the US governemnet, you just don't get paid and have no legal recourse.

Like I thought, since Neteller was a Canadian company and not subject tio US jurisdiction, why would they give a rat's ass about what puritanical, tyrannical, morally bankrupt crap the US gov't chose to impose on its citizens.

Boy, was I wrong. Next thing our gov't foze $40MM or so in Neteller accounts.
Eventually, since it turns out, Neteller has to eventually transfer the money you gave them to another bank your casino has faith in will transfer it to them, that bank actually has branches in the US and isn't going to jeopardize its business with the US for a crappy $1000 casino transfer.

So it won't accept the money from Neteller or transfer the money to your casino.

So, eventually, Neteller caves in realizing it's out of business with no way to get your money to the bank that funds your casino and no way to send the money to your US bank even if it could becasue your US bank won't accept it.

And there you have it how a Canadian company with no direct US jurisdiction, no fear of being sued or anything, just simply can't continue to do business if it wants to survive at all.

Look how quickly PayPal caved when sued by, I think, a mere State Attorney General for New York. They quickly settle for hundreds of thousands, agree to not to casino business and are bought out shortly thereafter by White Knight Ebay who shuts Paypal down completely for gambling transfers.

Just a few months ago I got some call by some guy, with a very sweet deal on the face of it, "mathematically" and all that crap, a complete no brainer, I couldn't lose money on it no matter how hard I tried. All I had to do was send some cashier's check to some place I think in Venezuela, who would send it to Costa Rico who would send it to them and, if I won, maybe I'd be paid back via some pre-paid phone card. And, oh yes, after asking, they wouldn't give me a number to phone them back from.

I never caught in the Neteller freeze but I did get checks, post Neo-Nazi Gambling Act, that my banks simply refused to cash despite being dated before the Act and representing winnings incurred prior to the Act.

But, I don't know, it seems like some of you US guys still seem to have a way of still playing and being paid. I have no idea how, if so.

It seemed like BoDog told our gov't to go screw themselves for a while - they are not I believe a US company - but it seemed like later maybe they were also being put under "heat"?

Is BoDog viable?

Publicly or privately lol.

All I want to do is send a few hundred bucks somewhere, play with a $1 min in a -EV game and do my Black Magic lol.

I guess I'm supposed to my gov't a thank you note for saving me 33 cents an hour and forcing me to go see a movie that costs me $20 for 2 hours.

Rant over lmao.

 

[Mimosine]

#1. Not for you, just for the banks doing the transferring.

i can't always say this about your posts Kasi, but this one for me was a gem

 

[The DogHermit]

Thanks everyone!

Thanks for such a comprehensive set of replies, especially to Kasi. Basically it sounds like I'm scrod, since it seems like way too much toil and intrigue even if I *did* find an operator who seemed reputable. The States, they do like their cut of the action...

Plus, I have to admit, I kind of like the crazy people you meet at the tables.

Gibson, in answer to your question, maybe it's more a question of what constitutes a "fair amount," LOL. I play 2-3 times a week on average, hundred dollar bets, at a casino that allows early surrender. I play in the early-early, on my way into work - half an hour at a table is a long time for me, it's usually 10-15 minutes (it takes much longer to park my car and walk to and from the table than to play, for the most part). I'm colored up the second I'm up $250 or down $500. My goal is $500/wk, and I've managed to hit that most of the time. All in all it amounted to roughly an extra $17k last year. This year I'm not doing as well, but still ahead. It's an unromantic grind, but I dig it.

 

[InPlay]

It is not illegal to gamble online, nor to transfer money. As long as you're not betting sports, another illegal game, or live in a state where it is illegal.

However, no casinos accept US players any more.

Wrong again my friend. There are plenty that accept USA players. Please do your research before giving incorrect advice to people.

 

[InPlay]

#1. Not for you, just for the banks doing the transferring.

#2. Nothing will legally happen to you. They will go after the bank who transmitted the money. What happens to you is, since banks don't want to piss off the US governemnet, you just don't get paid and have no legal recourse.

Like I thought, since Neteller was a Canadian company and not subject tio US jurisdiction, why would they give a rat's ass about what puritanical, tyrannical, morally bankrupt crap the US gov't chose to impose on its citizens.

Boy, was I wrong. Next thing our gov't foze $40MM or so in Neteller accounts.
Eventually, since it turns out, Neteller has to eventually transfer the money you gave them to another bank your casino has faith in will transfer it to them, that bank actually has branches in the US and isn't going to jeopardize its business with the US for a crappy $1000 casino transfer.

So it won't accept the money from Neteller or transfer the money to your casino.

So, eventually, Neteller caves in realizing it's out of business with no way to get your money to the bank that funds your casino and no way to send the money to your US bank even if it could becasue your US bank won't accept it.

And there you have it how a Canadian company with no direct US jurisdiction, no fear of being sued or anything, just simply can't continue to do business if it wants to survive at all.

Look how quickly PayPal caved when sued by, I think, a mere State Attorney General for New York. They quickly settle for hundreds of thousands, agree to not to casino business and are bought out shortly thereafter by White Knight Ebay who shuts Paypal down completely for gambling transfers.

Just a few months ago I got some call by some guy, with a very sweet deal on the face of it, "mathematically" and all that crap, a complete no brainer, I couldn't lose money on it no matter how hard I tried. All I had to do was send some cashier's check to some place I think in Venezuela, who would send it to Costa Rico who would send it to them and, if I won, maybe I'd be paid back via some pre-paid phone card. And, oh yes, after asking, they wouldn't give me a number to phone them back from.

I never caught in the Neteller freeze but I did get checks, post Neo-Nazi Gambling Act, that my banks simply refused to cash despite being dated before the Act and representing winnings incurred prior to the Act.

But, I don't know, it seems like some of you US guys still seem to have a way of still playing and being paid. I have no idea how, if so.

It seemed like BoDog told our gov't to go screw themselves for a while - they are not I believe a US company - but it seemed like later maybe they were also being put under "heat"?

Is BoDog viable?

Publicly or privately lol.

All I want to do is send a few hundred bucks somewhere, play with a $1 min in a -EV game and do my Black Magic lol.

I guess I'm supposed to my gov't a thank you note for saving me 33 cents an hour and forcing me to go see a movie that costs me $20 for 2 hours.

Rant over lmao.

If you would do some research all the USA citizens who had money in Neteller did get paid and the checks were good after Neteller assets were unfrozen by the goverment. You are a smart guy or girl plenty of online books that take USA citizens. Ever hear of Western Union ? Ever hear of writting a E- Check ? Ever hear of a Cashier Check ? Federal Express ? Bodog is probally the slowest paying book on the net for your information. I would stay clear of them to many excuses.

 

[Kasi]

If you would do some research all the USA citizens who had money in Neteller did get paid and the checks were good after Neteller assets were unfrozen by the goverment.

Right. Maybe six months later. After Neteller agreed to no longer broker gambling funds for US citizens.

Even before that, even before that amendment to the Port Security Act, Paybal, sued by a measly NY State Attorney General agreed to get out of the business. Shortly after that EBay bought them and disallowed Paypal for use of gambling on the internet.

Neteller ended happily for US citizens but what do you think gave the US Justice Dept the authority in the first place to freeze the funds of a Canadian company?

Also, any funds paid were only for before the Act was passed. Is my understanding.

You are a smart guy or girl plenty of online books that take USA citizens. Ever hear of Western Union ? Ever hear of writting a E- Check ? Ever hear of a Cashier Check ? Federal Express ? Bodog is probally the slowest paying book on the net for your information. I would stay clear of them to many excuses.

I'm a guy. Abuse me accordingly lol.

Sports betting, domestically or over the internet, as far as I can tell, has been illigal since the Wire Act in the 60's.

Who were those guys that had the misfortune to land at a US airport on their way to out-of-the-country? They never made it. The one guy spent how much jail time while his partner tried to continue to do business?

I don't sports-bet. Never have. When I die and go to h*ll, the devil will probably give me a choice to sports-bet or play slots.

Yes, I've heard of Western Union etc. Even pre-paid phone cards as a way to fund a casino. I got a call a while back to send a cashier's check to somewhere in I think Venezuela. They would then send the money to the Costa Rico-based casino. I think I was to be paid thru Western Union. I asked for a number to call them back at and they asked "why do you want that?" lol.

BoDog was a place that, a while back, seemed to continue to do business with US citizens. My impression is they have been put under alot of pressure by our Neo-Nazi gov't. You don't see the owners of BoDog landing at US airports on a stopover, that's for sure, do you?

It's illegal for a US bank to transfer gambling funds is my understanding. Eventually, all these guys have to use a US bank so you can get your money.
The individual has committed no violations just the Bank for transferring, the way I understand it.

I have to give the gov't credit for focusing the guilt on the banks rather than the individuals.

My bank refused to cash an Intercasino check that arrived shortly after passage of the Act although the gamblings pertaining to the check were pre-Act.

Two years later, after I had given up, the bank called and said I had a cr*pload of money in an account I had let go dormant. More money than I was expecting. They didn't even have enough cash on hand to pay me in cash so I took a bank check, closed the account, and deposited it somewhere else.

Now I'm only owed about $5K.

So, maybe I'm gun-shy. And old. And conservative. I won my money a few hundred at a time, sometimes with largeish amounts on deposit with a casino, and depended on reliably getting paid.

But, if you, or some of you, know how to continue funding and are continuing to be paid, beautiful.

To Mimosine, glad you liked one of my posts, although I have no idea why lol.

 

[moo321]

Wrong again my friend. There are plenty that accept USA players. Please do your research before giving incorrect advice to people.

Yeah, and they're all rogue RTG's that will freeroll you, or even worse they have cheating software. I'm not aware of a single reputable casino that accepts US players.

 

[EasyRhino]

Yeah, and they're all rogue RTG's that will freeroll you, or even worse they have cheating software. I'm not aware of a single reputable casino that accepts US players.

There's a few (very few) good RTGs. also, most of the microgaming casinos are a decent lot, but they only allow existing US players, not new ones.

 

[jerseyshop101]

The true +even online games are the freerolls, they have at least 2 a week at Bookmaker.com, I posted it in a thread in here. I have taken those winnings and played their online blackjack and have done very well using a system of playing only a $1 a hand, and only increase it to 15-25 when the dealer busts with 24-26. I read about this on another forum. It seems you win these more than 55% if the time. And on the hands after a push, you lose those more than 60% of the time. I haven't done any long term stats, but mainly because once I'm up 50-100 or so bucks I end my session (and put it on a baseball parlay, I should stick with the blackjack tourneys instead )

 

[EasyRhino]

The smartest thing to do with tournament winnings would be to just withdraw it. Unless you're truly good at tournaments, in which case you might want to use it for stakes in more tourneys.

Using any sort of "system" against online blackjack is a waste of time and money.

 

[WRX]

Hi, Kasi. There's one part of your story that I'd be very interested to know more about:

I never caught in the Neteller freeze but I did get checks, post Neo-Nazi Gambling Act, that my banks simply refused to cash despite being dated before the Act and representing winnings incurred prior to the Act.

Were there actually multiple checks that one or more of your banks screened out of your deposits, and refused to process? It's been pointed out, in arguing that the UIGEA was futile and unworkable, and it's also been a reason that the regulations finally implemented are so vague and toothless, that it's essentially impossible for banks to examine all of the paper checks they receive, and determine the source. In the case of various forms of electronic funds transfers, it's trivial to identify the sender or the recipient, because parties to these transfers have to give identifying information when setting up accounts with whatever institution is handling the transfers, and receive account numbers which instantly identify them when they take part in transactions. However, for a bank to screen out paper checks that may be proceeds of gambling transactions, they'd have to have employees examine each individual check (not something they have historically done), and then compare the names of the payor and of the bank on which the check was drawn against some list (prepared by whom?) of "suspects." A huge burden, and the facilities for carrying this out simply aren't in place.

So if your banks were refusing to deposit certain checks, it leads me to wonder why. And if there were features of these checks that made them stand out, maybe it points the way to avoiding future difficulties. Were some of these checks drawn on foreign banks? Did they have imprints of payor names that were obviously gambling-related (like "Lucky Pigeon Casino")?

Later in the thread, you say, "My bank refused to cash an Intercasino check that arrived shortly after passage of the Act although the gamblings pertaining to the check were pre-Act." Meaning that the check had "Intercasino" written on it?

"Two years later, after I had given up, the bank called and said I had a cr*pload of money in an account I had let go dormant." What happened? They deposited a check, even though they initially told you they wouldn't?

Thanks.

 

[Kasi]

Were there actually multiple checks that one or more of your banks screened out of your deposits, and refused to process? It's been pointed out, in arguing that the UIGEA was futile and unworkable, and it's also been a reason that the regulations finally implemented are so vague and toothless, that it's essentially impossible for banks to examine all of the paper checks they receive, and determine the source. In the case of various forms of electronic funds transfers, it's trivial to identify the sender or the recipient, because parties to these transfers have to give identifying information when setting up accounts with whatever institution is handling the transfers, and receive account numbers which instantly identify them when they take part in transactions. However, for a bank to screen out paper checks that may be proceeds of gambling transactions, they'd have to have employees examine each individual check (not something they have historically done), and then compare the names of the payor and of the bank on which the check was drawn against some list (prepared by whom?) of "suspects." A huge burden, and the facilities for carrying this out simply aren't in place.

So if your banks were refusing to deposit certain checks, it leads me to wonder why. And if there were features of these checks that made them stand out, maybe it points the way to avoiding future difficulties. Were some of these checks drawn on foreign banks? Did they have imprints of payor names that were obviously gambling-related (like "Lucky Pigeon Casino")?

Later in the thread, you say, "My bank refused to cash an Intercasino check that arrived shortly after passage of the Act although the gamblings pertaining to the check were pre-Act." Meaning that the check had "Intercasino" written on it?

"Two years later, after I had given up, the bank called and said I had a cr*pload of money in an account I had let go dormant." What happened? They deposited a check, even though they initially told you they wouldn't?

Thanks.

Hi WRX,

Well, it's a little complicated lol. Actually, there were multiple checks involved at the same bank nonetheless. But deposited into such different checking accounts it would be impossible to relate the deposits. Both checks were drawn on the same account and both from Intercasino. Both were deposited with in days of each other. I used to take a picture of any checks I received back in the old days but I did not take a picture of these having gotten used to Neteller. The one check, for $99, cleared uneventfully from the one account. The other check for $1800+ was deposited and soon thereafter a letter was received from the bank notifying the account holder that they had "reasons to believe" the check would not clear. They put an unusually long 30-day "hold" on it. 60 days later the check was still not credited. They were weird about it and seemed to be saying they returned the check to the issuer.

In the old days they took a check drawn on "The Fedaral Bank of the Middle East" located on the 25th floor of the World Trade Center 30 days after the building no longer existed :grin:

I believe the check, and the other one too, would have been from Intercasino's cyber-processor, E-cash Direct, and had that name on the check. In the meantime, a $3K transfer from Neteller to the account in question initiated on 10/11/2006 was declined by the bank a week later and sent back to Neteller. 5 days after that Cherry casino sent a withdrawal to Neteller. A transfer request from Neteller to the account in question was inititated 8 days after that for both amounts and was accepted by the bank.

Turns out that $3700 was the "extra" money I guess I had forgotten about.

I can only surmise eventually, somehow, the original $1800+ check eventually made its way into the account.

I was not in a position to initiate direct inquiries lol. Let's not go there and leave it at that I was an absolute, utterly shameless bonus whore. And then some lmao.

And now, I think I recently read, all this time maybe the banks have not been required to follow the Act for the reasons you mention and that the latest extended deadline for holding them accountable for processing this crap is this coming Dec 1st.

So, maybe even now, they can't be prosecuted by good old Uncle Sam if they screw up now and then and process a gambling transaction.

So, I guess maybe for $99 they just let it happen. For $1800 they made a big deal about it. Or maybe, they eventually realized they would not be held accountable even if they made a little "misnake" lol.

I think Inter chose to not process withdrawals back to Neteller and chose to only issue checks at the end of things. As I recall - could be wrong. Every other guy would process back to Neteller.

Whether or not the banks could be held accountable didn't really matter for me anyway as the places I mostly played refused my USA IP address anyway.

Things were getting tougher toward the end anyway and more places would refuse my play just on principle.

I was probably "backed off" more times on the internet than the FLASH himself in real life :grin:

And playing a -EV game at $2/hand. Apparently scared the living hell out of them lol.

I know for a fact, one casino that really pissed me off for banning me for a few hundred a month probably never noticed 10 more accounts were shortly thereafter opened and those people won over $30K from them. I was merely an "advisor", guaranteeing any losses they might incur as long as they did what I told them. Some of whom had never played a hand of BJ in their life lol.

They still thank me lol.

 

[WRX]

Hey, Kasi, nice story, thanks! Glad you got your revenge against the casinos that were giving you grief.

So it sounds like the biggest problem was with receiving electronic funds transfers, which as I was saying are going to be the easiest for a bank to screen out and recognize as having a source that they might have a problem with. As to that one check--where they said that they had "reasons to believe" that it would not clear--it sounds like they might genuinely have had such concerns, if received from what they thought was a sketchy bank.

Getting final credit for deposited checks, after clearing through the banking system, takes longer than most people realize. Banks can and do put lengthy holds on funds, and if they allow you to draw against a deposited item that later bounces, they'll expect you to reimburse them. This gives rise to all kinds of scams, I'm afraid. I had a client just a few months ago who fell for the "you have been selected as a secret shopper" scam. They sent her a check for $4,000, and all she had to do was write a couple of checks on her own account for $3,200 and send them to someone in Jamaica, and she could keep the rest. You can guess what happened.

 

[Katweezel]

Clout for the bastards

Hey, Kasi, nice story, thanks! Glad you got your revenge against the casinos that were giving you grief.

So it sounds like the biggest problem was with receiving electronic funds transfers, which as I was saying are going to be the easiest for a bank to screen out and recognize as having a source that they might have a problem with. As to that one check--where they said that they had "reasons to believe" that it would not clear--it sounds like they might genuinely have had such concerns, if received from what they thought was a sketchy bank.

Getting final credit for deposited checks, after clearing through the banking system, takes longer than most people realize. Banks can and do put lengthy holds on funds, and if they allow you to draw against a deposited item that later bounces, they'll expect you to reimburse them. This gives rise to all kinds of scams, I'm afraid. I had a client just a few months ago who fell for the "you have been selected as a secret shopper" scam. They sent her a check for $4,000, and all she had to do was write a couple of checks on her own account for $3,200 and send them to someone in Jamaica, and she could keep the rest. You can guess what happened.

I think I need to hire you, WRX. In the past 12 months, I've won about $20 million in various lotteries from UK, USA, South Africa, Australia, Hong Kong and France, and I never knew I had a ticket. Plus I have been promised more than $200M from Nigerian oil interests, as soon as I send them a few grand. I've also inherited $100M from foreign relatives I never heard of, that got crushed and set ablaze when a petrol tanker exploded.

So far, I have not seen a red cent. Can you get on the cases of these bastards, and we split, uh, say 60-40? I been looking for someone with clout. :cat:

 

[iCountNTrack]

Next Time Your Outside the US

To circumvent most of the problems of online gambling for U.S citizens : next time you are OUTSIDE of the US, open a bank account and have the bank issue to you a bank/debit card(visa, master card) that you can easily use in the U.S for purchases, cash withdrawal...

 

[Katweezel]

Offshore banks

To circumvent most of the problems of online gambling for U.S citizens : next time you are OUTSIDE of the US, open a bank account and have the bank issue to you a bank/debit card(visa, master card) that you can easily use in the U.S for purchases, cash withdrawal...

Can a US citizen initiate and complete this from INSIDE the USA, if he knows a good, reliable offshore bank?