Missouri laws
- Thread starter SlyPooch
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LV Bear
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From Current Blackjack News:
Missouri casinos may not bar players for skilled play. However, they can and will take countermeasures, which include lowering table maximum and/or reducing penetration, as extreme as shuffling after every round.
Some notice and react quickly, some don't. Like any other casino, the reaction is dependent on the competence and interest in their jobs of the crew on duty.
Missouri casinos may not bar players for skilled play. However, they can and will take countermeasures, which include lowering table maximum and/or reducing penetration, as extreme as shuffling after every round.
Some notice and react quickly, some don't. Like any other casino, the reaction is dependent on the competence and interest in their jobs of the crew on duty.
As somebody that played both the NJ/Missouri model for 5 years and the Nevada model of the cat and mouse game for 17 years now,, the Nevada model is night and day superior for a card counter. You just learn to play that cat & mouse game, what is and isn't tolerated at different casinos and you can play for years. NJ/Missouri on the other hand has only one option and that is to make the game unplayable with things like bet restricting and preferential shuffling.
SlyPooch said:
Ok, in Vegas this year, I haven't had any of the usual polite backoffs that I get here, but I have had 3 what I call heat incidents. Two of them my picture was sent around electronically to sister properties in the same chain. The workaround, just don't play the casinos involved for a few months.
the third was an incident where the dealer pushed my bet back and dealt around me, I am sure at the instruction of the pit guy standing immediately behind him. The workaround: I treat this one like a back off even though I wasn't backed off and not a word spoken and that is to just stay away from that casino for a few months, and maybe that particular pit guy for 6 months.
But in New Jersey or Missouri, the casinos would have just made the game unplayable, cut the deck in half, bet restrict ect, and made it so you can't play. So to me the Vegas models with opinions is far better.
Yes, I suppose that is true....either way, you are done for THAT day.gronbog said:
But speaking from my own experience, and I have been playing Vegas for a living for 17 years now, I just feel like Las Vegas, using the model where they can back off and even ban/trespass players are actually a little more lenient, as long as you find and play their comfort level and play limits they are comfortable with and don't play for too long. It is like they know they have that option in the back pocket. Whereas. the places that don't have those backoff/trespass options, as soon as they get a hint of a player card counting, they are coming at the player with bet restricting, or preferential shuffling/cutting the deck in half type of stuff.
Now admittedly, I am going by my own experiences and my time playing Atlantic City was a long time ago now (2004-2009). I have just done so much better playing Vegas for 17 years than I did my last year or so playing Atlantic City, as long as you figure out and play within what is tolerated and accepted. (time and limits)
I'll tell you the perfect story of what I am talking about. It happened back in 2011, and I believe I told it on this forum back when it was different ownership. I call it the "perfect shoe". I will try to keep it short but probably will fail.
It was the old Monte Carlo Casino on the strip. (Now ParkMGM). 6 deck game 2 other players. First shoe was uneventful. Second shoe the count took off immediately. In large part because the dealer was pulling 4 and 5 card 20's and 21's for about 4-5 hands. First one of the other players had enough and left and then the other. The second one looked at me and said "your on your own" or something to that effect. That was fine with me as I was heads up with the dealer in a monster plus count, with probably 180 cards left until the shuffle.
It is from this point on, playing even more than my max bet (I call it supermax bet), I did not lose a round. probably 32-33 rounds. One round was a split that I won one and lost one for a push, and there was another that I had a 10 vs dealer 10 and at that count should have been a double down as it was well above the index. The game was moving so fast as heads-up sometimes does that I screwed up and only hit that hand. I drew a 2. Hit again and drew an 8, to push the dealers 20, when I should have lost a double down. So 2 rounds were pushes and every other, I won. Probably won 30 out of 32 rounds, using Don's estimate of player/dealer cards per round.
At the end of the shoe, I colored up, only because I had way too many chips to carry and headed for the exit with my 20 grand in chips., pit critter and security watching me take off. Avoided the cage and the good opportunity for a clean head shot photo.
I have since had bigger winning days, only because I played higher stakes, but have never had anything like that "perfect shoe" (from the time it mattered).
If this event would have happened in NJ....they would have shuffled up on me after 8 or 10 hands. Not a doubt in my mind.
There is an interesting ending to that story, in that I became friends with that pit guy and am good friends to this day. He has been to my home a number of times. I did agree never to play in a pit that he was working again.
It was the old Monte Carlo Casino on the strip. (Now ParkMGM). 6 deck game 2 other players. First shoe was uneventful. Second shoe the count took off immediately. In large part because the dealer was pulling 4 and 5 card 20's and 21's for about 4-5 hands. First one of the other players had enough and left and then the other. The second one looked at me and said "your on your own" or something to that effect. That was fine with me as I was heads up with the dealer in a monster plus count, with probably 180 cards left until the shuffle.
It is from this point on, playing even more than my max bet (I call it supermax bet), I did not lose a round. probably 32-33 rounds. One round was a split that I won one and lost one for a push, and there was another that I had a 10 vs dealer 10 and at that count should have been a double down as it was well above the index. The game was moving so fast as heads-up sometimes does that I screwed up and only hit that hand. I drew a 2. Hit again and drew an 8, to push the dealers 20, when I should have lost a double down. So 2 rounds were pushes and every other, I won. Probably won 30 out of 32 rounds, using Don's estimate of player/dealer cards per round.
At the end of the shoe, I colored up, only because I had way too many chips to carry and headed for the exit with my 20 grand in chips., pit critter and security watching me take off. Avoided the cage and the good opportunity for a clean head shot photo.
I have since had bigger winning days, only because I played higher stakes, but have never had anything like that "perfect shoe" (from the time it mattered).
If this event would have happened in NJ....they would have shuffled up on me after 8 or 10 hands. Not a doubt in my mind.
There is an interesting ending to that story, in that I became friends with that pit guy and am good friends to this day. He has been to my home a number of times. I did agree never to play in a pit that he was working again.
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I had a very similar experience in the high-limit pit at Harrah's, only I played alone from the start and it was the very first shoe. I purposely went back the next day to see if I was still welcome, and I was!
Sadly, the reverse is also true ... twice: once at Caesars A.C., and and once at Bellagio. Lost virtually every hand in the shoe, alone at Caesars but with others at Bellagio. Unspeakable losses.
Don
Sadly, the reverse is also true ... twice: once at Caesars A.C., and and once at Bellagio. Lost virtually every hand in the shoe, alone at Caesars but with others at Bellagio. Unspeakable losses.
Don
It is funny, when I had this experience that I describe and became friends with the pit guy, he told me "I just can't allow you to play and have those kind of results anymore". I was completely ok with that and our arrangement, but I did try to tell him that what happened that day really had little to do with card counting. When a player wins 30 of 32 or anything similar, that is really just a player on a positive "heater". Just so happens because of card counting, I had my big bets out when that heater occurred.DSchles said:
And yes, we have all had the opposite, occurs, where you put those big bets out and lose almost every hand or what SEEMS like almost every hand. THAT is life with card counting.