My First Card Counting experience... NEED HELP

#1
Hello, I recently started my card counting venture with a $50,000 bankroll. I read Wong’s book and can count very well. I use his optimal bet formula (%advatage x .8 x bankroll), play good games (either double deck and only S17 six deck games). Using Wong’s formula, my bets are as follows:
0-1$25
+2 $200
+3 $300
+ 4 $400
I only increase a bet slowly. So I’ll go from $25 to $75 to $150, etc. my spread is basically 16 at the highest counts.
The VERY FIRST day of counting, I sit down at at 2 deck $10 minimum table and only spread to $50. As soon as I bet $50 the dealer shouted something and the pit bosses all looked at me. After ten minutes they asked me to stop plying. And I won nothing! Same thing happened at the next casino. And the next one.
So I found a six deck, S17 game with average penetration and implemented the betting scheme above. I only played positive counts and the people at the table were LIVID. They cussed me out complaining I was “messing up the deck”, which is of course absurd and ignorant. So I left the table when the counts went really south. The pit bosses received a phone call and all looked at me.
I have no idea how to do this. You can maybe get away with spreading big, wonging in and out, and backcouting but not all three. People at the table GET PISSED when you sit out hands and only play positive counts, not to mention the pit bosses noticing. And I can’t even spread to $50 at the two deck shoes!
Can someone help?! I have read so much information on here and implemented it but it just doesn’t seem possible in the long run.
 
#3
DSchles said:
Where did you play?

Don
Hi Don. Well I went to Vegas for the first time and was asked to stop playing at three casinos. I left down $400. Was pretty annoyed at that experience.
I live in northern Kentucky and there’s only one casino near me worth counting. It’s a single 6 deck table $25 minimum, S17, DAS, split four hands. They also have other six deck tables, but they’re all H17.
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#4
Might have been that your jump from $25 to $200 was a bit severe. It's a pretty obvious jump to go from one green to eight. Clearly, it ruffled a few feathers. But you didn't say where you were. There's a big difference between downtown and the Strip, and you have to know your establishments. It sounds to me like you weren't playing in the high-end places. Dumps like El Cortez simply won't tolerate the kind of play that you describe. Others as well.

Don
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#5
There are some real red flags in your posts regarding the casino you were playing.

Any casino where someone "notices" or comments on a jump from $25 to $50 is probably not a casino comfortable with green/black action.

Same thing with a back off after 10 minutes. 10 minutes isn't enough time for any kind of evaluation. If they back you off after 10 minutes they are an ultra sweaty joint like South Point. (Or similar).

3rd red flag is 1 s17 table and 5-6 h17. That probably translates to 1 $25 table and 5-6 $5 or $10 tables. This might mean it is a low roller joint that isn't really comfortable with your level of play.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#7
You really have to figure out just what is tolerated at each casino and what level draws attention. And this may differ according to what time and day of week.

If it is a casino you don't know and don't know what limits they are comfortable with, look around and see what are players are player. If everyone is playing red, you are probably in trouble. If a few are playing green but only varing a couple chips, you are probably in trouble. If you are the largest bettor you definitely are in trouble (unless you are already familiar).
 

tuck22

Active Member
#8
KewlJ said:
There are some real red flags in your posts regarding the casino you were playing.

Any casino where someone "notices" or comments on a jump from $25 to $50 is probably not a casino comfortable with green/black action.

Same thing with a back off after 10 minutes. 10 minutes isn't enough time for any kind of evaluation. If they back you off after 10 minutes they are an ultra sweaty joint like South Point. (Or similar).

3rd red flag is 1 s17 table and 5-6 h17. That probably translates to 1 $25 table and 5-6 $5 or $10 tables. This might mean it is a low roller joint that isn't really comfortable with your level of play.
I've been backed off in 8 minutes at the el cortez on dd having only bet my min and 2x min on a couple of hands because the count never rose, and I've last 90 mins spreading 50-300 on double deck on different trips. Sometimes the pit watched me the entire time, and I did a few things to throw them off but for whatever reason I was able to last. The laughable 8 minute backoff came from upstairs and I hadn't played there in close to a year.

On the two 90 minute trips I was already downtown and was just hoping to be able to get 30 minutes of play in before getting kicked out but it never happened.

Point being even in the same casino you can have drastically different results on different days or shifts with regards go being allowed to play.
 
#9
tuck22 said:
I've been backed off in 8 minutes at the el cortez on dd having only bet my min and 2x min on a couple of hands because the count never rose, and I've last 90 mins spreading 50-300 on double deck on different trips. Sometimes the pit watched me the entire time, and I did a few things to throw them off but for whatever reason I was able to last. The laughable 8 minute backoff came from upstairs and I hadn't played there in close to a year.

On the two 90 minute trips I was already downtown and was just hoping to be able to get 30 minutes of play in before getting kicked out but it never happened.

Point being even in the same casino you can have drastically different results on different days or shifts with regards go being allowed to play.
I guess my question is this. Since you have to be able to play thousands and thousands of hands, and you can only do an hour tops at a casino, how do you guys make money doing this? It just seems almost impossible. Also when I sit out hands people get PISSED! And start cussing at me. I don’t get it.
 
#10
KewlJ said:
Can I ask how many players at this $25 table?
It varied from me and
DSchles said:
Might have been that your jump from $25 to $200 was a bit severe. It's a pretty obvious jump to go from one green to eight. Clearly, it ruffled a few feathers. But you didn't say where you were. There's a big difference between downtown and the Strip, and you have to know your establishments. It sounds to me like you weren't playing in the high-end places. Dumps like El Cortez simply won't tolerate the kind of play that you describe. Others as well.

Don
Rampart, Suncoast, and another one way off the strip. I didn’t play at any of the high-end casinos on the strip. Which casinos would you suggest? Also, how do you sit out hands without people giving you attention and getting so pissed? It seems like this is hard to do in real life.
 
#11
KewlJ said:
There are some real red flags in your posts regarding the casino you were playing.

Any casino where someone "notices" or comments on a jump from $25 to $50 is probably not a casino comfortable with green/black action.

Same thing with a back off after 10 minutes. 10 minutes isn't enough time for any kind of evaluation. If they back you off after 10 minutes they are an ultra sweaty joint like South Point. (Or similar).

3rd red flag is 1 s17 table and 5-6 h17. That probably translates to 1 $25 table and 5-6 $5 or $10 tables. This might mean it is a low roller joint that isn't really comfortable with your level of play.
What do you spread to and how do you do it as to not draw attention? I personally find six deck games easier to spread gradually.
 

tuck22

Active Member
#12
Dallase1 said:
I guess my question is this. Since you have to be able to play thousands and thousands of hands, and you can only do an hour tops at a casino, how do you guys make money doing this? It just seems almost impossible. Also when I sit out hands people get PISSED! And start cussing at me. I don’t get it.
i play an hourish tops on double deck
in vegas for every hour i play there has been about an hour of travel time.sometimes i go somewhere and get to play 90 mins (some places are more tolerant than others- and i also tend to push things a lot more on my last few days of a trip), sometimes i go somewhere and the games suck so i leave right away or the tables are all full so i leave. it's just what it's averaged out to. i try and play empty tables as much as possible.

spreading 50-300 (and sometimes a little more) i can get a good hourly in these games, despite having to move around a lot plus i enjoy it. i'm not a full time blackjack pro.

i don't sit out hands at the table and just sit at the table. i might go take one well timed bathroom break on a double deck game per casino. in shoe games i'm just gonna change tables when the count tanks unless it gets bad with 1-2 decks left then i might go to the bathroom and come back. but just sitting out at the table and not playing? no never. not because people get mad but it's just so obvious what you're doing.ESPECIALLY if you're doing this in double deck.


If you were just sitting out negative counts in double deck it's no wonder you got caught so fast.

You can play longer in 6 deck games, but being I live on the east coast and I love double deck, when I go to vegas it's mostly for poker and double deck bj. I'll get backed off some and go back 4-6 months later on another trip and play some more. If I lived in Vegas and wanted to play all the time it would be on shoe games.

I still need a lot of work on my game. The counting part is easy but I've been backed off more than I would like. You can't make it so obvious you're counting especially in Vegas.

You mentioned Suncoast- i've played there multiple times for an hour and just left on my own with a decent win and no issues. I've been kicked out of there in 20-30 mins on other trips. I try and play there when there are a decent amount of games and other people betting green as I've been kicked out faster when I'm the only one betting green.You can't let it get to you. Learn from your mistakes and learn what works best in different casinos.

You also need to develop a thicker skin. Someone is gonna get mad at you when you hit a 12 vs 6 when the count calls for it. Hell they get mad at you if you hit 12 vs 2 and the dealer makes a 21 instead of busting. Who cares.
 
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#13
tuck22 said:
i play an hourish tops on double deck
in vegas for every hour i play there has been about an hour of travel time.sometimes i go somewhere and get to play 90 mins (some places are more tolerant than others- and i also tend to push things a lot more on my last few days of a trip), sometimes i go somewhere and the games suck so i leave right away or the tables are all full so i leave. it's just what it's averaged out to. i try and play empty tables as much as possible.

spreading 50-300 (and sometimes a little more) i can get a good hourly in these games, despite having to move around a lot plus i enjoy it. i'm not a full time blackjack pro.

i don't sit out hands at the table and just sit at the table. i might go take one well timed bathroom break on a double deck game per casino. in shoe games i'm just gonna change tables when the count tanks unless it gets bad with 1-2 decks left then i might go to the bathroom and come back. but just sitting out at the table and not playing? no never. not because people get mad but it's just so obvious what you're doing.ESPECIALLY if you're doing this in double deck.


If you were just sitting out negative counts in double deck it's no wonder you got caught so fast.

You can play longer in 6 deck games, but being I live on the east coast and I love double deck, when I go to vegas it's mostly for poker and double deck bj. I'll get backed off some and go back 4-6 months later on another trip and play some more. If I lived in Vegas and wanted to play all the time it would be on shoe games.

I still need a lot of work on my game. The counting part is easy but I've been backed off more than I would like. You can't make it so obvious you're counting especially in Vegas.

You mentioned Suncoast- i've played there multiple times for an hour and just left on my own with a decent win and no issues. I've been kicked out of there in 20-30 mins on other trips. I try and play there when there are a decent amount of games and other people betting green as I've been kicked out faster when I'm the only one betting green.You can't let it get to you. Learn from your mistakes and learn what works best in different casinos.

You also need to develop a thicker skin. Someone is gonna get mad at you when you hit a 12 vs 6 when the count calls for it. Hell they get mad at you if you hit 12 vs 2 and the dealer makes a 21 instead of busting. Who cares.
May I ask what your average hourly win is? Seems like it varies but when you bet from $25 to $400 it can be substantial.
 

Meistro

Well-Known Member
#14
bro don't start out with a max bet of $400. You are still green. get some experience at low limit play before u start making the big bets.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#16
Dallase1 said:
May I ask what your average hourly win is? Seems like it varies but when you bet from $25 to $400 it can be substantial.
Meistro said:
bro don't start out with a max bet of $400. You are still green. get some experience at low limit play before u start making the big bets.
Dallase1, Meistro is correct you need to get your feet wet to get some experience under your belt. Learning a book to start out will only carry you so far. You need to learn how to evaluate and react with casino personnel around you.
 
#17
BoSox said:
Dallase1, Meistro is correct you need to get your feet wet to get some experience under your belt. Learning a book to start out will only carry you so far. You need to learn how to evaluate and react with casino personnel around you.
Do people actually make money doing this? It seems nearly impossible to implement,
 
#18
Dallase1 said:
It varied from me and

Rampart, Suncoast, and another one way off the strip. I didn’t play at any of the high-end casinos on the strip. Which casinos would you suggest? Also, how do you sit out hands without people giving you attention and getting so pissed? It seems like this is hard to do in real life.
Dallase1 said:
I guess my question is this. Since you have to be able to play thousands and thousands of hands, and you can only do an hour tops at a casino, how do you guys make money doing this? It just seems almost impossible. Also when I sit out hands people get PISSED! And start cussing at me. I don’t get it.
Definitely do your homework on specific stores. I’ve never bothered with low roller joints at Vegas. I amassed a higher bankroll and strictly hit the high end casinos in Vegas at the main floor. So far only the more sweaty ones like Mirage (flat bet) and TI (BJ Ban) have backed me off.


Dallase1 said:
What do you spread to and how do you do it as to not draw attention? I personally find six deck games easier to spread gradually.
Ditto, I’ve avoided DD altogether for longevity. I’m a part time pro so I have fun at 6D despite the lower EV. My spread is 20X with a min bet of black chip
 
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