New to the board/Omega II count

[ElementX]

Hi everyone,

I am new to the board even though I've been reading the posts for quite some time. You guys are extremely knowledgable players from whom I can learn, and I hope to contribute a thing or two myself here. I'm a recent UCSB grad (now living in Los Angeles) and took up blackjack and cardcounting about a year ago. So, a big hello to everyone. I was using hi/lo and then read Bryce Carlson's Blackjack for Blood and started using the Omega II system. I have found it to be effective, especially in Super Fun 21, though I have yet to master all the indices. Learning the indices for a +6 TC and wonging into six-deck games has been quite effective also. Has anyone read the book and used the system for either SD, DD or 6D play? Any additional thoughts?

Cheers.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

"I am new to the board even though I've been reading the posts for quite some time. You guys are extremely knowledgable players from whom I can learn, and I hope to contribute a thing or two myself here."

Welcome to Card Counter Dot Com! ;>

"I'm a recent UCSB grad (now living in Los Angeles) and took up blackjack and cardcounting about a year ago. So, a big hello to everyone. I was using hi/lo and then read Bryce Carlson's Blackjack for Blood and started using the Omega II system. I have found it to be effective, especially in Super Fun 21, though I have yet to master all the indices. Learning the indices for a +6 TC and wonging into six-deck games has been quite effective also. Has anyone read the book and used the system for either SD, DD or 6D play? Any additional thoughts?"

That is one book I have not had a peek at yet. I have read some of Carlson's work on card clumping and he had done an amazing job by refuting that you can form a system to beat it. His AOII ranks up there with the Hi Opt II and Zen counts, and that is the reason I would like to get his book. You know how to play multi-deck by back counting and wonging in and out so you know what you are talking about already.

Welcome Aboard!

 

[learning to count]

Welcome Equis. We are all here to learn and exchange ideas. This is a great board to "peacefully" trade ideas, experiences and make new friends. My best advice IMHO is to read every thing you can on advantage play. I play hi-lo and love six deck shoes. How about a breakdown of your system LTC

 

[Buick Riviera]

Omega II count and SF21

I was using hi/lo and then read Bryce Carlson's Blackjack for Blood and started using the Omega II system. I have found it to be effective, especially in Super Fun 21

In an article written by Orange County KO (available at this site, click here:
http://www.cardcounter.com/SuperFun21.htm (Archive copy)), he recommends other count systems with this game. Of course, I presume you are following the BS for this game also because it is quite different from the traditional games you mentioned in your post. OCKO has a nice SF21 chart as part of his article.

The Wizard of Odds recommends a slightly different BS for SF21 than that of OCKO, which is linked and discussed in the OCKO article.

I thought this may be of interest since you have beem attackimg the SF21 game.

Buick

 

[ElementX]

Hi-Lo / Omega II

Hi LTC,

I like the hi-lo because of its simplicity- level 1 systems are good also for team play because each member can learn it quickly. Do you play the negative counts on six deck shoes or do you prefer to come in with a good plus count? Do you play SD or DD? I switched to the Omega II count because it is slightly more effective in single and double deck play, though in these games there is usually no mid-shoe entry. I use the Omega II in six-deck games but don't play against the negative counts. Still trying to master the Omega II indices. The only problem with Omega II is that the ace is neutral and it advocates an ace side count, which is supposed to improve playing efficiency. Mathematically, the removal of an ace gives approx. a 0.50% disadvantage to the player (www.ace-ten.com - a good site by the way).

ElementX

 

[zengrifter]

Omega II - FLAWED?

NO, just obsolete - and the BryceBlood book IS flawed in terms of betting advice/strategy and many/most other game-points. Suggestion 1) return to HiLo IMMEDIATELY, learn 50+ indices, and don't look back... or Suggestion 2) swap your current Ace and 9 tags ala ZEN, learn 50+ indices for that system, and don't look back. AO2 is the second most over-rated system in counting, the first being HO2. zg

 

[learning to count]

Re: Hi-Lo / Omega II

I use hi-lo because that is what I am good at. Computing the true count is easy for me and I use limited indices; Ill18,fab4,etc.. I learned hi-lo from Jerry Patterson's books and from one of his proteges who played during the Uston era.

I did not really put 200% into it until two years ago. I went through a divorce and I wanted to do something I always wondered about. Professional Advantage play. I dont have the pro bank roll (100K) but I feel I have pro level skills. I still need experience and I need to sharpen my indicies skills and deviating from basic startegy. I recently understand the value of surrender when you have a big bankroll out and are stiffed. Surrender is so important and I know it cold.

I still am gun shy about big bets. I over protect my bankroll. I am changing though with time and understanding when the big guns should come out. "Ya gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em".

I love singledeck. I sometimes can see the deck if they deal deep enough. I can remember what aces are left with out keeping a mental track. I just remember.

I love to make my decisions on how to play my hand correctly. I am able to track the TC up to my hand and make the decision according to the TC. I can track the TC at the moment the dealer lays his first and second card down. The only bad thing about single deck is the heat and terrible penetration. I still love it though it is a challnge! I love the action too. Yeah ZG Im addicted!

Six deckers are cool and they are plentiful. I have been learning DD and it is interesting but hard to get good pen. I played at one casino where the dealer would go to one deck then shuffle then at the next deal he would deal out to almost a half a deck. It was weird but I took advantage of until I fell asleep at 3am.

The one thing I still have problem is with negative deviation. It kills me to drop a grand in three or four hands. I feel Like I am in a hole and have to dig out. I know, I know you will come back and the you have to ride the coaster. It is like deppression with lots of lows and less highs.

As far as team play I suggest you play for your self. I have a group of friends who at every trip become more cohesive. We protect each other and stay alert and locate good games, weak dealers, and good looking chics. I dont want to be responsible for another persons money. I am also untrusting of other people being responsible with my money. Start with a scout team who look for good games. LTC

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Hi-Lo / Omega II

I have seen somewhere (RGE) that the Ace value is as high as .61% You seem smart enough to figure out for yourself what is working for you. I use Hi Opt II and find it rather easy, but I stick to 20 indices which represent over 90% of all possible gain from deviating from basic. Learning more indices is a waste of time in my opinion. Don Shlag says 18 indices are enough, but if you are going to be playing full time then you may want to put in the extra effort.

 

[ElementX]

You're right about the betting...

Yes the betting strategies are certainly outdated, too simplistic- I have had to come up with some of my own when playing SD and DD based on the TC. For six deck I like to flat bet with a strong plus count. But as a counting system, I think the Omega II gives a pretty accurate reflection of the deck situation. Zen is good in that it takes the ace into consideration rather than the nine, which has a smaller effect on the player as a percentage. I'll take a look at it- Where can I get the Zen indices? I want to stick with a level 2 system but I think it is important to know the hi/lo indices also.

ElementX

 

[zengrifter]

Re: You're right about DECIDE

"Where can I get the Zen indices?"

If you were already committed to the AO2 i#s I would tell you to stick with those BUT use ZEN tags, otherwise get ZE#s from Snyder's 'Blackbelt in BJ' or form anyone qualified to provide them from one of several i#s generators.

"I want to stick with a level 2 system but I think it is important to know the hi/lo indices also."

NOT so, you will only need ONE set of i#s - level-1 or 2 is relatively unimportant BUT stop straddling the fence. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Hi-Lo / Omega II

"The only bad thing about single deck is the heat and terrible penetration"
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Reletively - a 1D 50% pene is mediocre, requires a 1-6+ spread, a 2D 60% pene 1-10 spread is a higher SCORE. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Hi-Lo / Omega II

RM - "I use Hi Opt II and find it rather easy, but I stick to 20 indices which represent over 90% of all possible gain from deviating from basic."
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Disagree, even in 8D games the extra gain available by increasing from 20 to 75 i#s of the order of 18% (according to CCCafe 'moderator' THopper), in 1-2D games the extra available gain is of the order of 25+%

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RM - "Learning more indices is a waste of time in my opinion. Don Shlag says 18 indices are enough."
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"Enough" is a subjective term, though DS himself employs about 100+ i#s. zg

 

[zengrifter]

OCKO's SF21 is THE Seminal SF21 work

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Hi-Lo / Omega II

I would think that anyone that makes their living playing blackjack should use as many indices as possible. That exta 10% works like compound interest over time, just like the extra edge of one system over another makes a big difference long haul.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

10% of 1% Compounded

"I would think that anyone that makes their living playing blackjack should use as many indices as possible. That extra 10% works like compound interest over time, just like the extra edge of one system over another makes a big difference long haul."

One more comment on this issue. This last 10% we gain by going beyond the first twenty indices is 10% of the possible 1% or so gained above the 1% we have just using basic. Using 6 decks 5 dealt S17 DAS LS 1-12 spread with a 10K BR $ won per 100 hands is:

KO $50.50
HL $52.04
Zen $56.95
AO II $60.21
Hi Opt II $61.61

This is only a few $ difference for those 100 hands, and will compound the bankroll in the same degree, as will the extra .1% added edge to our supposed (on the high side) 1.9% edge by using basic and twenty indices.

More important is penetration, game rules, and the proper use of the bankroll based on the count.

 

[ElementX]

Re: Omega II count and SF21

I think the key to SF21 is the betting spread and whether you play one hand or two hands at a time, rather than the particular counting system used. OCKO's piece is certainly exceptional.

ElementX

 

[zengrifter]

Re: Omega II count and SF21

Just like reg21. zg

 

[T-Hopper]

Re: Hi-Lo / Omega II *LINK*

See the link below for a comparison between High-Low with basic strategy (BC .97 PE 0)and a system similar to Advanced Omega II(BC .98 PE .72); slightly higher BC). Keep in mind that risk was not considered in this comparison, only raw win rates relative to the maximum bet.

 

[Rob McGarvey]

Re: Hi-Lo / Omega II

Excellent work TH. I love the way you used the graphs to let viewers see the difference in these percentages over time. If you are going to be putting in a lot of time at the tables it is worth your while to learn a more complex count and add more indices.

 

[T-Hopper]

Over time? *LINK*

The x-axis shows the cut card effect, not results over time. The sine wave structure you see is caused by the cut card effect. This is caused by the last round tending to be more likely to be dealt with a negative count at certain penetration points. At other points, the number of rounds dealt will be fairly consistent, reducing or eliminating the negative count bias. The distance between peaks and valleys of the curve corresponds to the average number of cards dealt per rounds.