NRS intuition

alienated

Well-Known Member
#1
Below, Paddyboy expressed the understandable feeling that the NRS formula seems counter-intuitive. What follows is an attempt to explain in simple terms the basic reasoning underlying that very useful tool for shuffle trackers. Nothing presented here is original. The ideas are developed in more sophisticated form in posts by Statman and DvBj, archived at bjmath.com in the section entitled "Shuffle Tracking / Card Location", which is accessible from that site's Table of Contents page.

Consider the first deck of an 8-deck shoe and imagine the following two scenarios.

Scenario 1. Before the shoe commences, you happen to know that the first deck has a total hi-lo running count of -4. That is, it is a favourable deck, having 4 more big than small cards.

Scenario 2. Before the shoe commences, you happen to know that the first deck is made up of a half-deck, X, with a count of -4, that is mixed with another half-deck, Y, with an unknown count. That is, you know the count of X, but know nothing specific about Y.

After the first round of play, you observe that the running count has dropped to -4.

Is your expectation for the next round better in scenario 1 or scenario 2?

The NRS formula tells us that you are better off in scenario 2.

Let's see why.

In scenario 1 you know that the count of the cards remaining in the first deck must be 0. This is because the overall count for the first deck is -4, and part way through the first deck the running count has already reached this end total. In other words, you know that 4 more high than low cards are due to come out during the first deck, and this has already happened by the end of the first round. There is no longer an excess of high cards for the remainder of the first deck.

Scenario 2 is different. Here we don't know for sure what the overall count is for the first deck. We know that one half of it, X, has 4 more big than small cards. But we don't know anything directly about the other half deck, Y. So the question arises: is the running count after the first round -4 because the extra big cards from X have been dealt, or because the unknown half deck, Y, just so happened to have an excess of big cards as well?

The correct answer to this question (which is what the NRS formula achieves) involves balancing two different considerations:

CA. Prior to the commencement of the shoe, we could form our 'best guess' of the first deck's count. Since the first deck is made up of 26 cards with a count of -4, and another 26 cards drawn from 7.5 decks with a count of +4, our best guess would be -4 + 4/7.5 = -3.47.

But there is another, separate issue to consider.

CB. In the dealing of the first round, the dealer has drawn cards that have probably come partly from the known half-deck X and partly from the unknown half-deck Y. Perhaps the negative count at the end of the first round is because cards were mainly drawn from X, which we know has a negative count. On the other hand, perhaps many of the cards didn't come from X, but instead came from Y. We don't know much about Y. Our best guess could easily be wrong. Therefore, perhaps the negative count of the first round provides us with some evidence that Y also contains an excess of big cards, just like X.

The idea behind CB might be made clearer by a simple example. Suppose I say to you, "I am holding in my hand 2 half decks, A and B. A has a count of +10, B has a count of -10. I will deal 5 cards from one of the half decks. Then you must guess whether I am dealing from A or B." Imagine that I deal the 5 cards and the count goes negative. Would you guess that I am dealing from A or B? The correct answer could be either, but your best guess would certainly be B. A small sample from B is more likely to give a negative count than a small sample from A, simply because on average our sample will reflect its population.

To sum up, our prior knowledge (before the shoe commences) suggests that Y will have a slightly positive count. This is CA. But our sampling evidence (once a round has been dealt) suggests that Y may actually have a negative count. This is CB. By correctly weighting these two considerations, the NRS formula is able to provide a correct answer for any particular situation.

Relating all this back to our 8-deck game with 1 round dealt and a running count of -4, the critical point is that we don't know where the 4 excess big cards came from. Perhaps they came from X. But they also may have come from Y, which would mean that the extra big cards that we know are in X would still remain to be dealt.

The implications for the player's expectation over the first deck are quite interesting:

IA. Prior to the commencement of the shoe, the player's expectation for the first deck is higher in scenario 1 than scenario 2. This is simply because the first deck is expected to have a count of -4 in scenario 1, but -3.47 in scenario 2. Thus, the expected excess of big cards is slightly greater in scenario 1 than scenario 2.

However...

IB. After one round has been dealt and the running count is -4, the player's expectation for the remainder of the first deck is now higher in scenario 2 than in scenario 1. The situation has been reversed. In scenario 1 no excess of big cards remains, whereas in scenario 2 the running count will still be expected to fall.

If the basic tension between CA and CB is kept in mind, perhaps IA and IB will not seem quite so counter-intuitive.
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
#2
Counter-intuition

Thanks for explaining this subtlety, I am not a Shuffle Tracker, so this is really the first I have seen of this type of argument, and it is highly counter-intuitive. Because the argument appears rock solid, I suppose I will just have to live with the counter-intuitive being true. :cool:

--Mayor
 
#3
Excellent explanation.It is crystal clear to me now.Except in scenario 2 you never tell us what the count is after the 4 highs have been dealt,how do we use the formula for this?
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
#4
See the posts at bjmath.com that I referred to above. These posts give the actual formula and explain the terms involved.

In the specific example I gave, the true count at the commencement of round 2 in scenario 2 will depend on how many cards have been consumed during the first round. If 13 cards are used up in the first round, the true count will be approximately 1.85 at the start of round 2. After reading the posts at bjmath.com, you'll be able to get the same answer.
 
#5
Dear Alienated
This is actually the first time that I have seen the nrs ecplained in relatively straightforward terminology.
Can you please expand on this farther with a few real world examples?
The higher level math by Statmen and Dvbj on bjmath make no sense to the masses
and I have always found your postings aesy to comprehend and well written.
BTW you state that you will not post at rge.Any particular reason for this?.
I have generally found the site informative and well moderated. But anyway it would be nice to see you there with some st advice etc. Arnold's gone,George C is nowhere to be found and you must rank up there along with the "experts"
Just mho.
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
#6
Suppose an 8-deck shoe. You note a 26-card slug with running count -10 that gets mixed with another 26 cards to form 1 deck. Cut this deck to the top. We want to know the true count off the top of the shoe and at various points throughout the first deck.

The true count can be calculated using the formula:

TC = (rc + A)/(N - L)

where:
A is the regular running count (zero at the start of the shoe),
L is the number (or fraction) of decks dealt from the segment containing our slug,
c is the running count of our slug,
r is a multiplier,
N is the number of pseudo decks we use as our devisor in determining the true count.

In our example, c = -10. We will calculate the true count at three points in our segment: off the top (ie, L = 0), after the first 13 cards have been dealt (L = 1/4) and after the first 26 cards have been dealt (L = 1/2). Off the top, the regular running count is zero (A = 0). We will assume that after 13 cards have been dealt A = 2, and after 26 cards have been dealt A = -8. So we know c, A and L. However, to use the above formula we first need to know r and N.

We find N as:

N = [(q^2)(d - k)]/[((q - k)^2) + k(d - k)]

where:
q is the size of the segment that contains our slug,
k is the size of our slug,
d is the size of the entire shoe.

In our example, q = 1, k = 1/2, and d = 8, so:

N = [(1^2)(8 - 1/2)]/[((1 - 1/2)^2) + 1/2(8 - 1/2)] = 7.5/(0.25 + 3.75) = 1.875

We find r as:

r = -1(N/q)[1 - (q - k)/(d - k)]

For our example:

r = -1(1.875/1)[1 - (1 - 1/2)/(8 - 1/2)] = -1(1.875)(1 - 1/15) = -1.75

We are now ready to use the true-count formula to calculate the true count: a) off the top; b) after the first quarter deck; c) after the first half deck.

a) Off the top, A = 0. The values for the other terms are r = -1.75, c = -10, N = 1.875, and L = 0, so:

TC = [(-1.75)(-10) + 0]/(1.875 - 0) = 9.33

Notice that this makes sense quite apart from the NRS formula. We know that in the first deck, our 26-card slug has a running count of -10. We also know that the other 26 cards are drawn from 7.5 decks with a running count of +10. Since 26 cards is 1/15th of 7.5 decks, we could expect the 26 cards to have a running count of 10/15 = 0.67. So our best estimate of the running count for the first deck would be -10 + 0.67 = -9.33. That is, we would expect the running count to fall by 9.33 over the first deck, implying a true count of 9.33.

The power of the NRS formula becomes evident once the segment has been partially dealt.

b) Assume now that 13 cards have been dealt and that the regular running count, A, is 2. The true count is:

TC = [(-1.75)(-10) + 2]/(1.875 - 0.25) = 12

The rise in the regular running count to +2 has two counteracting effects. On the one hand, it strengthens our expectation that the running count will fall before the end of the first deck. This is because we know that our slug has a count of -10, so unless the unknown 26 cards have a positive count of at least 10 (unlikely), the running count will be negative by the end of the first deck. On the other hand, the fact that our running count has not fallen up until now suggests that the unknown cards may well have a positive count. We can't tell for sure, but the evidence seems to be pointing in that direction.

The contradictory effects are revealed in the fact that our true count has increased (from 9.33 to 12), but the expected running-count movement over the first deck has decreased. Off the top we thought the running count after the first deck would fall to -9.33, whereas now we expect it only to reach 2 - 3/4(12) = -7. (NB. A true count of 12 means we expect the running count to fall by 9 over three quarters of a deck.)

c) Now suppose that after 26 cards have been dealt, the running count has dropped dramatically to -8. That is, almost all of cards 14-26 were big cards. Suddenly, things are reversed. On the one hand, the abundance of big cards suggests that most of our slug has been dealt. On the other hand, it seems to suggest that the unknown 26 cards must also have been rich in big cards. We now have:

TC = [(-1.75)(-10) + (-8)]/(1.875 - 0.5) = 6.91

So the true count has dropped, but we are still very much in positive EV territory. Notice again that counteracting effects are present. The true count has dropped because a lot of high cards have been dealt. Yet, because of the implication that the unknown cards are also rich in big cards, we now expect that by the end of the first deck the running count will drop well below -9.33 to -8 - 1/2(6.91) = -11.455.
 
#7
Dear Alienated
This is one amazing post!
It is so hard to find information regarding the "formula". The more normal responses consist of simply ignoring the question or more commonly referring the poster to the purchase of Black belt etc!
The articles by Statman et al are higher-level mathematical equations and are not translatable into English by the masses. Do you actually understand the math involved and posses the ability to use this in real play?

A hypothetical situation:

A = 26 cards and the rc = +8
B =39 cards and the rc = -6
C = 26 cards and the rc = +15
Suppose we know that that post shuffle A & C end up in the bottom 3 decks (game is 4.0/6) and that B ends up in the top 3 decks.
We know that 52 of the bottom 156 have a rc of+23 and that 39 of the top 3 decks have a rc of -6, but then what?

Assuming control of the cut, the logical (to me anyway) would be to cut 1 deck from the bottom (casino cut minimum applicable here). How do we then compute both the starting running count and the true for betting and playing decisions and what is the correct divisor? Obviously, we would expect the rc to be rising during that first 1 deck therefore the correct play would be to flat bet it and play as if the count was minus for strategy departures. no?
What happens if a player cuts 1.5decks from the top putting 66% of the "good cards" behind the cut? Although the best move would be to play only the first deck and depart, is it feasible to use the nrs here if the decision to stay and play all is made to track the next shoe?
The above examples will apply to any situation of course; therefore, the real question is how do you use the nrs formula when the player has 2-3 seconds only to make that betting and playing decision?
Can you suggest a "quick and dirty" method that can be used effectively using mental ability alone??
Many thanks for your time.
M
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
#8
I certainly can't use the NRS formula on the fly at the tables. What I do is work out various cases at home, then apply the results in the relevant situations in the casino. The cases worked out at home are guided by the type of shuffle I will face. For instance, for some complex shuffles it is hard to do much more than know that a small number of cards, n, will end up in a single deck, or two decks, or whatever in the next shoe. I would then work out 'realistic' cases for n-card slugs in appropriately sized segments. For simpler shuffles I prefer to estimate expected counts for all segments, rather than just one or two slugs. I then use the information conservatively.

You ask whether I can follow the mathematics in the NRS posts of Statman and DvBj. The short answer is, it depends what you mean by 'follow'... ;-) I have not had formal training in mathematics as such, although my studies back in my university days required a minimal level of competence in mathematics and statistics. These days, I do try to teach myself stuff as much as possible, but my math knowledge is still very limited. So, no, I could not have derived the NRS formula, including N and r, myself. Also, I can't understand every mathematical step in the reasoning. But in the posts by Statman and DvBj they kind of help you along, by explaining the intuition of what they are doing. So I understand (I think!) the basic logic of their argument. And in any case, it is not necessary to understand the derivation to apply the formula.
 
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