PA casino won't cash out $10k without ID

[ArcticInferno]

I read in some book that I should try to minimize the impression of wins and exaggerate the image of losses. The recommendation is that once I pocket a large chip (e.g. purple), don't take it out; just use cash to buy more chips if need be.
What I did was go to the cage and cash out the chips and if I needed more chips for any reason, I would just buy more with cash.
Around 11:00 PM, I went to cash out for the last time before going home, and the cashier requested an ID. I refused. She and her boss explained that if I cash out more than $10k in one day, they must register the cash transaction. I tried to reason with them that I didn't win $10k, but rather I was simply recycling the same cash & chips. Also, I asked how do they know who I am, and they said that they have a physical description in the computer, and she said that there're cameras here and everywhere else. I said this was a case of mistaken identity, and that I look similar to a lot of people. They still refused to cash my chips. I went back to the blackjack table and back-counted a bit and played for about an hour. A few minutes after midnight, I was able to cash out the rest of my chips and go home.
Foxwoods in CT doesn't care. They will cash out anything under $10k without an ID, and they don't keep a log of physical descriptions, so you can cash out $9k twice in the same day without an ID.

 

[bj21abc]

Interesting that it was OK after midnight - Meadowlands, for example, has a gaming day that begins at 0600.

D.

I read in some book that I should try to minimize the impression of wins and exaggerate the image of losses. The recommendation is that once I pocket a large chip (e.g. purple), don't take it out; just use cash to buy more chips if need be.
What I did was go to the cage and cash out the chips and if I needed more chips for any reason, I would just buy more with cash.
Around 11:00 PM, I went to cash out for the last time before going home, and the cashier requested an ID. I refused. She and her boss explained that if I cash out more than $10k in one day, they must register the cash transaction. I tried to reason with them that I didn't win $10k, but rather I was simply recycling the same cash & chips. Also, I asked how do they know who I am, and they said that they have a physical description in the computer, and she said that there're cameras here and everywhere else. I said this was a case of mistaken identity, and that I look similar to a lot of people. They still refused to cash my chips. I went back to the blackjack table and back-counted a bit and played for about an hour. A few minutes after midnight, I was able to cash out the rest of my chips and go home.
Foxwoods in CT doesn't care. They will cash out anything under $10k without an ID, and they don't keep a log of physical descriptions, so you can cash out $9k twice in the same day without an ID.

 

[aslan]

Interesting that it was OK after midnight - Meadowlands, for example, has a gaming day that begins at 0600.

D.

The casino's day may begin at 6 am, but the IRS's day begins at 12 midnight.

 

[mathman]

Working with a partner solves this problem besides if you're playing with this much it's not a bad idea for security...MM

 

[moo321]

That's a federal law. They're supposed to try to get ID for a transaction over $10k.

 

[bjcardcounter]

That's a federal law. They're supposed to try to get ID for a transaction over $10k.

Do we need to report in in our Tax report too? Is it a too dumb question? I started BJ and am winning only recently .... )

 

[Sucker]

You're very lucky that they let you take your chips back without forcing you to fullfill the reporting requirements. And the casino is even LUCKIER that they didn't get caught allowing you to take them back. Because it's written right into the law that structuring your transactions to avoid the Cash Transaction Report is a criminal act. Once you attempt to cash out, and then you change your mind BECAUSE of the law, you've definitely crossed that line. Good thing neither the cashier nor her boss understood the law.

Foxwoods in CT doesn't care. They will cash out anything under $10k without an ID, and they don't keep a log of physical descriptions, so you can cash out $9k twice in the same day without an ID.

Foxwoods absolutely DOES care, and they DO keep a log of physical descriptions. I guess because the place is so big maybe you can get away with it most of the time. But all it takes is to get caught structuring cashouts ONCE, and you risk being charged with a Federal crime.

 

[Sucker]

Do we need to report in in our Tax report too? Is it a too dumb question? I started BJ and am winning only recently .... )

(The only dumb questions are the ones you're afraid to ask.)

Any time you fill out a C.T.R. (cash transaction report), the casino is required to send a copy to the I.R.S. and to any other federal agency that requests it.

As I stated earlier, it would be a crime for me to advise you on how to avoid a C.T.R., but think about it: If you were to win more than 10K, and only cash out a portion of it that day; who's to say that you're not planning on holding onto the extra chips with the intention of coming back the next day and using them to gamble some more?

 

[shadroch]

I read in some book that I should try to minimize the impression of wins and exaggerate the image of losses. The recommendation is that once I pocket a large chip (e.g. purple), don't take it out; just use cash to buy more chips if need be.
What I did was go to the cage and cash out the chips and if I needed more chips for any reason, I would just buy more with cash.
Around 11:00 PM, I went to cash out for the last time before going home, and the cashier requested an ID. I refused. She and her boss explained that if I cash out more than $10k in one day, they must register the cash transaction. I tried to reason with them that I didn't win $10k, but rather I was simply recycling the same cash & chips. Also, I asked how do they know who I am, and they said that they have a physical description in the computer, and she said that there're cameras here and everywhere else. I said this was a case of mistaken identity, and that I look similar to a lot of people. They still refused to cash my chips. I went back to the blackjack table and back-counted a bit and played for about an hour. A few minutes after midnight, I was able to cash out the rest of my chips and go home.
Foxwoods in CT doesn't care. They will cash out anything under $10k without an ID, and they don't keep a log of physical descriptions, so you can cash out $9k twice in the same day without an ID.

What you did was illegal. Once you stopped cashing out because of the required ID, the casino may very well have filed a Suspicious Activity Report about the incident.
Waiting until the next day to cash out in order to avoid the CTR is considering strucuring, or laundering. It's a felony.

 

[shadroch]

(The only dumb questions are the ones you're afraid to ask.)

If you were to win more than 10K, and only cash out a portion of it that day; who's to say that you're not planning on holding onto the extra chips with the intention of coming back the next day and using them to gamble some more?

No one, unless you decide to post about it on the internet.

 

[ArcticInferno]

To reiterate, I did not win $10k.
The cash and the chips were constantly being recycled.
For example, if I buy $500 of chips with cash, and then
cash those chips for $500 in cash, then they would
incorrectly register a $500 transaction.

 

[WRX]

What I did was go to the cage and cash out the chips and if I needed more chips for any reason, I would just buy more with cash.

Around 11:00 PM, I went to cash out for the last time before going home, and the cashier requested an ID. I refused. She and her boss explained that if I cash out more than $10k in one day, they must register the cash transaction. I tried to reason with them that I didn't win $10k, but rather I was simply recycling the same cash & chips. Also, I asked how do they know who I am, and they said that they have a physical description in the computer, and she said that there're cameras here and everywhere else. I said this was a case of mistaken identity, and that I look similar to a lot of people. They still refused to cash my chips. I went back to the blackjack table and back-counted a bit and played for about an hour. A few minutes after midnight, I was able to cash out the rest of my chips and go home.

Foxwoods in CT doesn't care. They will cash out anything under $10k without an ID, and they don't keep a log of physical descriptions, so you can cash out $9k twice in the same day without an ID.

The law requires a CTR for a cash transaction of $10,000 or more in one day. It makes absolutely no difference how much you win or lose. At least in theory, you could win $50,000, but if you didn't cash your chips, no CTR would be required. But if you make a large cash transaction, despite having no win or loss, the casino has to complete a CTR. So if you churned chips to the point of trying to do a total of over $10,000 in chip redemptions in one day, yes, the casino was required to complete a CTR.

If you wish to cash only some of your chips, and keep the rest, genuinely intending to use them to play another day, that's perfectly legitimate. If you cash some of your chips, and then wait until just after midnight to cash the rest, bringing your total over $10,000, be very careful, because this could be deemed "structuring," arranging transactions so as to avoid a CTR, a serious crime that's very poorly defined and that no one really understands.

I'm surprised that Foxwoods didn't pick up on what you did.

 

[Tico]

ArcticInferno wrote:

To reiterate, I did not win $10k.
The cash and the chips were constantly being recycled.
For example, if I buy $500 of chips with cash, and then
cash those chips for $500 in cash, then they would
incorrectly register a $500 transaction.

Arctic,

I understand what you're saying about the recycling the same 500 bucks. When you "recycle', your same $500 becomes $10,500 cash-buy-ins after the 21st-buy-in. (See table below). The casino did not INCORRECTLY register a $500 transaction. The floorperson registered correctly in the computer $500-"fresh-money" each time when you bought in with your "recycled-500-bucks" . If I were you, I won't recycle next time because it's not worth your trouble to be accused of a CTR-evader. Even though you only bought in the same $500, hmm... the casino did not know that. Its computer showed you bought in $10,500 as per the example shown in the table below. By the way, a recycling-AP was told no more bjs in AC Harrah's unless he showed his SS# and his driver license .

Cash-buy-in-records for   
 "Obama-Look-alike" who wears:  
LA Lakers Champs cap,  red jacket,  blue jean,  white Michael Jordan Sneakers, smoker. 
 Cash    
  Amount Cumulative   
     
1 $500 $500   
2 $500 $1,000   
3 $500 $1,500   
4 $500 $2,000   
5 $500 $2,500   
6 $500 $3,000   
7 $500 $3,500   
8 $500 $4,000   
9 $500 $4,500   
10 $500 $5,000   
11 $500 $5,500   
12 $500 $6,000   
13 $500 $6,500   
14 $500 $7,000   
15 $500 $7,500   
16 $500 $8,000   
17 $500 $8,500   
18 $500 $9,000   
19 $500 $9,500   
20 $500 $10,000   
21 $500 $10,500

 

[shadroch]

To reiterate, I did not win $10k.
The cash and the chips were constantly being recycled.
For example, if I buy $500 of chips with cash, and then
cash those chips for $500 in cash, then they would
incorrectly register a $500 transaction.

It's not about winnnings, it's about cash.

I buy a car for $11,000 and pay cash, it generates a CTR.
I sell a car for $11,000, it generates a CTR.
I withdraw $10,000 from my bank, it generates a CTR

None of those transactions means I made a dime, it just means I'm moving cash around.

There are tens of thousands of CTRs done every day. It's not something to fear or be worried about. It doesn't mean you won dollar one.

 

[tensplitter]

You win $10,000 in the slots, that also generates a CTR. A high roller bets $10,000 on one hand, that's a CTR. If he wins, that's another CTR. You deposit your $50,000 bankroll to get a few bucks of interest on it and withdraw it 2 weeks later for another trip, every deposit and withdrawal is a CTR.

 

[mathman]

Big brother is watching you !!

BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU !
CARD COUNTERS ARE GUILTY OF THOUGHT CRIME !
THE PUNISHMENT FOR THOUGHT CRIME IS DEATH !
THOUGHT CRIME IS DEATH !
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU !

George Orwell's 1984 (except the card counter part)...JtMM

 

[kewljason]

Shad has it exactly correct. There is nothing to fear about CTR's, unless you are doing something illegal and can't explain yourself. In reading these message boards, you would think that they are your worst nightmare. Actually if it looks like you are trying to avoid generating a CTR it will look more suspicious. Things like depositing 9 grand 3 days in a row. I claim that I play blackjack for a living, so a few CTR's are nothing for me to worry about. I don't play at a level where I generate many many, but if I did, still pretty easy to explain. As long as you are reporting your winnings (I report every single dime to my uncle sammy...:angel: :laugh

 

[Sucker]

Shad has it exactly correct. There is nothing to fear about CTR's, unless you are doing something illegal and can't explain yourself.

This is basically true, but then again; who wants to HAVE to go into a CTR-triggered IRS audit and have to explain things anyway? Yes; it will keep you out of jail, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's NOTHING to fear about CTRs.

I have a very old & dear friend from Texas, who is NOT an AP, but a compulsive gambler. After losing several hundred thousand dollars (and his business, and his family, and everything else he owned) in less than a year, he was called in for one of these CTR-triggered audits. Lo & behold, they just happened to have had copies of EVERY SINGLE CTR of his CASHOUTS, but NONE of his buyins. He had to travel back to Vegas and go to every casino to get copies of his losing CTRs and then had to go back & show them to the IRS agent handling his case. You're RIGHT; he DID get things straightened out, but WHAT A HASSLE!

 

[shadroch]

You win $10,000 in the slots, that also generates a CTR. A high roller bets $10,000 on one hand, that's a CTR. If he wins, that's another CTR.


That's incorrect. Winning over a certain amount on a slot machine generates a W-1099, not a CTR. A 10,000 bet is usually in chips, so it's not a CTR.

 

[kewljason]

This is basically true, but then again; who wants to HAVE to go into a CTR-triggered IRS audit and have to explain things anyway? Yes; it will keep you out of jail, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that there's NOTHING to fear about CTRs.

I have a very old & dear friend from Texas, who is NOT an AP, but a compulsive gambler. After losing several hundred thousand dollars (and his business, and his family, and everything else he owned) in less than a year, he was called in for one of these CTR-triggered audits. Lo & behold, they just happened to have had copies of EVERY SINGLE CTR of his CASHOUTS, but NONE of his buyins. He had to travel back to Vegas and go to every casino to get copies of his losing CTRs and then had to go back & show them to the IRS agent handling his case. You're RIGHT; he DID get things straightened out, but WHAT A HASSLE!

Of course no one wants to have an IRS audit triggered by anything. (I haven't had the pleasure yet...and hope not too) But at least with CTR's things are out front and you know what you are dealing with and should have ample records if need be to back up your claim. Trying to avoid CTR, which is a crime BTW, could generate SAR's or SARC's that you don't even know about. So then when you go into that IRS audit, you are in the dark about what they even have. The guidelines for SAR and SARC's are less formal and basically comes down to that it is someone's option (banker or casino employee) that you are doing something suspicious. So if you are claiming that you are an AP and have records to back it up and pay your taxes, then there is no need to be afraid of a few CTR's.