Now I am somewhat new to BJ and I know some of my questions are probably a little retarded so please dont crucify me for this but I have heard a lot about how affects the game. Does penetration really make that big of a difference? Also i have noticed a few times that certain people will get upset if you jump into a game mid-shoe. Does this really make a difference in the way the cards are played or is it just people being superstitious??
Penetration
- Thread starter Gators4012
- Start date
All Depends
If you are a basic strategy player, when you start to play, how many players, what the player before or after you does, and the penetration makes no difference.
Casinos should deal as many cards as possible because they would make more money. They make money dealing cards so they should deal as many as quickly as possible.
If you are a basic strategy player, when you start to play, how many players, what the player before or after you does, and the penetration makes no difference.
Casinos should deal as many cards as possible because they would make more money. They make money dealing cards so they should deal as many as quickly as possible.
Effect of penetration for a counter: http://www.blackjackincolor.com/penetration3.htm
Players randomly coming and going has little effect. A card counter coming and going does. See http://www.blackjackincolor.com/othereffects1.htm
Players randomly coming and going has little effect. A card counter coming and going does. See http://www.blackjackincolor.com/othereffects1.htm
buzz off?
In the second link to your incredibly helpful BJinColor, you say that due to the negative impact on a counter's game of a back counter entering, the counter should consider leaving. But wouldn't it make as much sense to ward off the newcomer with comments about not interrupting the flow, or some such nonsense? Of course then the question would remain about whether or not to remain for a new shoe if the other player stayed on. I'm thinking mostly about DD in the instances where mid-shoe entry is permitted.
In the second link to your incredibly helpful BJinColor, you say that due to the negative impact on a counter's game of a back counter entering, the counter should consider leaving. But wouldn't it make as much sense to ward off the newcomer with comments about not interrupting the flow, or some such nonsense? Of course then the question would remain about whether or not to remain for a new shoe if the other player stayed on. I'm thinking mostly about DD in the instances where mid-shoe entry is permitted.
The true count is rather inaccurate at the beginning of the shoe. Often times the count decreases very little or actually increases. The advantage is when the count drops quickly which is more probable the deeper we penetrate the shoe.
Norm, I wonder if it is possible to run simulations on the advantage vs rate of change of true count dcount/dcards.
IMHO
I think that those "certain people" could very well have been counters that were in the midst of a positive count and thus would be upset that after waiting for the advantageous situation; some ploppy comes in and gets a natural (it happens to me to often).
Or, they may not be counters but are experiencing a positive run and thus like the counter who actually knows it is an advantageous shoe they are pissed someone else is taking the good cards they had been getting.
Or, they are superstitious etc and the count may well be negative (or positive) and there panties are in a bunch either way.
I think that those "certain people" could very well have been counters that were in the midst of a positive count and thus would be upset that after waiting for the advantageous situation; some ploppy comes in and gets a natural (it happens to me to often).
Or, they may not be counters but are experiencing a positive run and thus like the counter who actually knows it is an advantageous shoe they are pissed someone else is taking the good cards they had been getting.
Or, they are superstitious etc and the count may well be negative (or positive) and there panties are in a bunch either way.
I think there are two ways of penetration one of them is card penetration it refers to the method of weighting the cards that have already been dealt against the cards that are remaining,about to be reshuffled.And other is Deck penetration is easier with blackjack games that use a single deck, as there are only 52 cards to consider.You have to memorise basic blackjack strategy and money management strategies to enhance your winning chance.
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Ricky Conway
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Ricky Conway
iCountNTrack said:
The true count is rather inaccurate at the beginning of the shoe. Often times the count decreases very little or actually increases. The advantage is when the count drops quickly which is more probable the deeper we penetrate the shoe.
Norm, I wonder if it is possible to run simulations on the advantage vs rate of change of true count dcount/dcards.
Norm, I wonder if it is possible to run simulations on the advantage vs rate of change of true count dcount/dcards.
I'll take a shot at this one. First, the answer: all other considerations being considered equal between two games, penetration is the single most important factor.
An extreme example: Consider a single-deck game, heads up. At one table, the dealer is only dealing one round. Obviously, a card counter cannot win at this game. You can never vary your bet with the count, because as soon as you've seen some cards they are redealt. Likewise, you can't vary your play with the count either. The cards you see on the first round, heads up, simply factor into Basic Strategy.
Now, at another table, the dealer is dealing down to the last card before shuffling. Think about the last round of play, when there are only enough cards left for that one round. You've seen the entire deck so far, you know ALL that information. If you had a computer, you make the perfect play because you would know exactly which cards are left, and once you have your cards, you would know with a high probability what the dealer's hole-card is. Obviously, we don't have a computer, just our brains. But keeping a count does give up a lot of information. If the count is high, we know that high cards are left for this round; if it's low, we know there are mainly low cards left. We can bet and play accordingly, and make an absolute killing at this game (which is exactly why you can't find a single-deck game dealt down to the last card).
The same goes for a six-deck shoe. The deeper the penetration, the more information you will have at that penetration level. The count will mean more, because more cards have been seen: in other words, the TC will deflect more. You will have a higher percentage of higher (and lower) counts with deeper penetration than you will with less penetration.
So, all other things being equal, penetration is the single most important factor for a card counter.
(A shuffle tracker will tell you they actually want less penetration, but that's a different story...)
An extreme example: Consider a single-deck game, heads up. At one table, the dealer is only dealing one round. Obviously, a card counter cannot win at this game. You can never vary your bet with the count, because as soon as you've seen some cards they are redealt. Likewise, you can't vary your play with the count either. The cards you see on the first round, heads up, simply factor into Basic Strategy.
Now, at another table, the dealer is dealing down to the last card before shuffling. Think about the last round of play, when there are only enough cards left for that one round. You've seen the entire deck so far, you know ALL that information. If you had a computer, you make the perfect play because you would know exactly which cards are left, and once you have your cards, you would know with a high probability what the dealer's hole-card is. Obviously, we don't have a computer, just our brains. But keeping a count does give up a lot of information. If the count is high, we know that high cards are left for this round; if it's low, we know there are mainly low cards left. We can bet and play accordingly, and make an absolute killing at this game (which is exactly why you can't find a single-deck game dealt down to the last card).
The same goes for a six-deck shoe. The deeper the penetration, the more information you will have at that penetration level. The count will mean more, because more cards have been seen: in other words, the TC will deflect more. You will have a higher percentage of higher (and lower) counts with deeper penetration than you will with less penetration.
So, all other things being equal, penetration is the single most important factor for a card counter.
(A shuffle tracker will tell you they actually want less penetration, but that's a different story...)
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I am a little confused Norm, i thought you have the edge at high TC because you know that there is higher a probability that the next cards that will come into play are high, i.e the count is going to drop. And isn't it more advantageous for the player if the same drop in count occurs at a smaller slug vs a bigger slug??
iCountNTrack said:
I am a little confused Norm, i thought you have the edge at high TC because you know that there is higher a probability that the next cards that will come into play are high, i.e the count is going to drop. And isn't it more advantageous for the player if the same drop in count occurs at a smaller slug vs a bigger slug??