percentage of income poll

[kewljason]

I am sure the number of fulltime players has dwindled through the years as the BJ games deteriorated. Unlike myself, the smart players, probably divert their their time and talents to other business opportunities. I am curious as to how many fulltime players are still at it. I understand the reluctance of players to divulge this type of info, so hopefully the anonymity will eliminate that aspect. For the purpose of this poll we are talking all AP techniques, not just counting. Basically player vs casino. Fulltime refers to all of your income coming from AP play, not a certain number of hours. (I would imagine the good FT players only play a handful of hours per month)

 

[BJgenius007]

Since last July when PA legalized table games, I played 10 hours a week, divided into 3 sessions. For the past 6 months, I won about 2 units or $50 a hour, which is less than I earn from my day job as a software engineer.

 

[BrianCP]

Well, never been to a casino, so 0%. Actually probably a -% due to the items I purchase to practice and learn, so APing is actually costing me money at this point! At least it isn't the casino taking it though.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Am I a Pro?

When the :cat: buys my dinner? :devil:

good cards
:joker::whip:

 

[Dopple]

When you refer to any AP play as a hobby it paints a picture of someone saving $200 to drive 100 miles in a Kia to a nickle table with a pocket full of coupons.

While according to your breakdown I would fit into the hobbyist catagory I would prefer to save the term hobby for butterfly and stamp collecting.

Take this with a grain Jason. Salt or whatever.

 

[paddywhack]

When you refer to any AP play as a hobby it paints a picture of someone saving $200 to drive 100 miles in a Kia to a nickle table with a pocket full of coupons.

While according to your breakdown I would fit into the hobbyist catagory I would prefer to save the term hobby for butterfly and stamp collecting.

Take this with a grain Jason. Salt or whatever.

Sort of felt the same way, but I took it in the way I assume it was meant, I hope.

I fit into the hobby category too and agree with your assessment.

 

[kewljason]

Sorry guys. Did not intend to offend anyone with terminology. Just trying to get a feel as to how invested most players are and how big a part of their life, AP plays. It isn't a reflection of one's smarts or skill level. I play for a living as I am sure you are aware, with very modest skill and knowledge. Believe me, I know most players playing on a part-time basis are far smarter than myself and could be more successful if they chose to play full time. It's just different circumstances.

 

[Dopple]

No offense Jason I am just funning you.

I am thinking of taking up FT AP play in Vegas, could you bankroll me for a while? Just til I get off my feet.

 

[paddywhack]

Just jerking your chain too

It's a hobby alright, a serious hobby that's made me some nice $$. Now to get the roll to the point where I can have a little FUN with some of it, then it'll be NICE :grin:

 

[kewljason]

I am thinking of taking up FT AP play in Vegas, could you bankroll me for a while? Just til I get off my feet.

ha ha! I still haven't grown my own BR to the point that I want it yet.

There's definitely something to be said for playing part-time, or as a hobby or supplementing income, whatever terminology you want to use. 'Weekend warriors' comes to mind. Something along the lines of not putting all your eggs in one basket. :laugh:

One of the big advantages part-timers have is that when variance turns on you and jumps up and bites you in the ass, and make no mistake about it....it will at some point, you can take time off if need be, to regroup. Life goes on with income not effected all that much. A full time player, especially a grinder, one who plays low/mid levels such as myself, doesn't have that luxury. At the end of the year my income is all about EV x time played. If I take time off to regroup, that is lost income. So when losing days turn into losing weeks and into losing months, ya gotta get right back out there the next day, no matter how much you don't feel like it. :sad:

 

[Craps Master]

'AP play' seems redundant in the same way that 'ATM machine' is. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

[Syph]

Well, I spend more of my time playing against players now than the casinos, so one of the full-time votes may, or may not, be valid.

As for the weekend warriors and counting, I'm not really a big fan of the concept. Many will never play long enough to overcome a bad stretch of variance, so I consider most recreational counters to be engaged more in gambling than advantage play.

Mind you, I have a somewhat more personal definition of 'advantage play' than most. In brief, simply having expectation on a given play does not meet my needs. I've probably been most influenced by poker in this regard, where I routinely pass up slight edges for locks. There is some debate on this, even in the poker community, but little to none from those who play for a living.

You can pick your moments.

And KJ, don't cut yourself short. Most people who play part-time would be incapable of playing full-time. At least, not with the slight edges a typical weekend warrior has with counting. One of the reasons that most successful full-time players abandon counting is that THEY can't handle the fluctuations. It is out of the need for brute survival that they gravitate to stronger methods. Methods that are out of reach for the recreational player.

This is a bit of a sore point for those who make advantage play a significant part of their recreation, but do not derive the majority of their income from it. Simply having the attributes does not make you a contender. And you simply don't know how you'll react until your livelihood is on the table. It's more an issue of intestinal fortitude than intellectual prowess. I'm certain, for instance, that a QFIT has a far stronger grasp on the mathematics of advantage play than myself (at least, I would certainly hope so!), however ... I am also certain he would never place himself in the situations that have been instrumental in my growth as a player.

So, yes, in a way some could be more successful as full-time advantage players ... but they never will be. Nor should they even attempt such folly. It's not in their nature, and this isn't a bad thing.

Best,
Syph

 

[creeping panther]

Syph

Well, I spend more of my time playing against players now than the casinos, so one of the full-time votes may, or may not, be valid.

As for the weekend warriors and counting, I'm not really a big fan of the concept. Many will never play long enough to overcome a bad stretch of variance, so I consider most recreational counters to be engaged more in gambling than advantage play.

Mind you, I have a somewhat more personal definition of 'advantage play' than most. In brief, simply having expectation on a given play does not meet my needs. I've probably been most influenced by poker in this regard, where I routinely pass up slight edges for locks. There is some debate on this, even in the poker community, but little to none from those who play for a living.

You can pick your moments.



And KJ, don't cut yourself short. Most people who play part-time would be incapable of playing full-time. At least, not with the slight edges a typical weekend warrior has with counting. One of the reasons that most successful full-time players abandon counting is that THEY can't handle the fluctuations. It is out of the need for brute survival that they gravitate to stronger methods. Methods that are out of reach for the recreational player.

This is a bit of a sore point for those who make advantage play a significant part of their recreation, but do not derive the majority of their income from it. Simply having the attributes does not make you a contender. And you simply don't know how you'll react until your livelihood is on the table. It's more an issue of intestinal fortitude than intellectual prowess. I'm certain, for instance, that a QFIT has a far stronger grasp on the mathematics of advantage play than myself (at least, I would certainly hope so!), however ... I am also certain he would never place himself in the situations that have been instrumental in my growth as a player.

So, yes, in a way some could be more successful as full-time advantage players ... but they never will be. Nor should they even attempt such folly. It's not in their nature, and this isn't a bad thing.

Best,
Syph

Excellent post from one of the true greats of the modern BJ world.

Kudos and props!

For sure Post of the month material

CP

CP

 

[aslan]

Also, you might consider the fact that some so called recreational players would have to make more than $30,000 or $40,000 or more just to fit into the supplemental category.

 

[Syph]

Thanks for the kind words, Panther.

In truth, I am a hack compared with some I've met in the field. I recently chatted with James, and he mentioned that his ability, now, far exceeds where he was when we first met nearly a decade ago. His skill then, even from my perspective now, was frightening. Today, he must be nothing short of a warlock. I'm serious here.

That said, I have a few traits that I've capitalized on in recent years. Patience and freedom. The two, combined, allow me to be very selective of the environments I interact in. I am quite certain that if some of you saw what I have access to, you would shake your heads, slow-like.

And crickets would chirp.

So if I'm a contender, it's only because the competition was drunk, drugged, malnourished, and the fix was in.

I take some small satisfaction in that.



All the best,
Syph

(ps Aslan, good point. Where people are, financially, is a rather personal matter. In my current community, I would be hard pressed to find anyone who makes less than six figures a year. In fact, I know of no one. Blue or white-collar. In a Third World country, however, some of these same people would make pennies. I'm not sure where the USA is at, I don't spend much time there. I do get the impression the country is becoming more and more divided along economic lines. Where someone stands could be anywhere, and through no fault of their own.)

 

[QFIT]

It's more an issue of intestinal fortitude than intellectual prowess. I'm certain, for instance, that a QFIT has a far stronger grasp on the mathematics of advantage play than myself (at least, I would certainly hope so!), however ... I am also certain he would never place himself in the situations that have been instrumental in my growth as a player.

How you could possibly come to such an odd conclusion, and be "certain" of it, is beyond me.

What I do is determine, to the best of my ability, the probability of outcomes. I am neither talking about mathematics nor the gambling field in particular. I am talking about looking at human dynamics in complex situations and balancing the possible upsides and downsides of various actions. Humans are always the largest variable, not simple math. Beating a casino is trivial in comparison to advancing in the corporate world. This is the basis of my professional life and how I have worked over decades in several fields. What I DON'T do, is make baseless assumptions about the lives of others and post them. I really wish you would refrain from posting wild speculations about people about which you know nothing.

Syph, if you wish to progress in the real world, please make an attempt to present your points without degrading others with gratuitous slights.

 

[sagefr0g]

erhh kewl, i'm not sure what the fifth option means:
AP is my hobby hopefully resulting in a little extra cash (less 20%)
erhh does that mean those who vote that option hope to earn extra cash but may in fact be down 20% on their money?
or more likely i guess you mean they earn 20% or less of their total income from AP endeavors?

 

[moo321]

Mind you, I have a somewhat more personal definition of 'advantage play' than most. In brief, simply having expectation on a given play does not meet my needs. I've probably been most influenced by poker in this regard, where I routinely pass up slight edges for locks. There is some debate on this, even in the poker community, but little to none from those who play for a living.

You can pick your moments.

Can you elaborate a bit? Are there certain folds you'd make in a NL cash game, or is this in tournament play?

 

[Pelerus]

I recently chatted with James, and he mentioned that his ability, now, far exceeds where he was when we first met nearly a decade ago. His skill then, even from my perspective now, was frightening. Today, he must be nothing short of a warlock.

A Vatican assassin warlock?

Does he also have tiger blood, by any chance?

 

[aslan]

A Vatican assassin warlock?

Does he also have tiger blood, by any chance?

That line is beginning to lose its sheen.