Picking a System, lot's of questions.

[GoodBJ]

Hello folks I've been reading about BJ for a few months and trying to pick a system, I've built up a bunch of questions. Some of my questions though are just curiousities and aren't for helping me pick a system.
A bit about me: I'm up to the challenge of higher counts and in western Canada we don't really have heat to worry about. I think I could handle SC'ing an easier system like HiLo, I wouldn't try it myself with a harder system like HiOpt2. For side counting I wouldn't need to keep a separate count in my head, I could use props when I see an ace to keep track of it for me. I'd like to learn one system that does well enough across the board shoes and pitch.

I had come across mention of SC with HiLo here http://www.bj21.com/boards/free/free_board/index.cgi?noframes;read=103179 and one other place I think on this forum that said a couple changes would bump up IC to .93%. I'm a noob so I could very well be wrong but this seems like it would put HiLo on par with L2's for pitch games which I intend to build up to playing exclusively DD and if I can find SD. And Hilo is already recommended as good enough for MD.

What are your opinions on HiLo side counted? Or if I'm wanting a powerful system should I just do a higher level without a SC?

A question about Halves is why in Modern BlackJack here: http://www.qfit.com/book/ModernBlackjackPage191.htm and on the next few pages does Halves do so well in pitch games even though it's PE and IC are lower than the systems below it?

Not for me playing but just curious Would adding an ace SC to systems like RPC, Mentor, Zen, Halves bridge the gap between them an Hi-opt2 to make them equal? Or would Hi-Opt 2 still be a little better?

Where can I find a breakdown of the different TC conversions like 1D, 1/2D, 1/4D and the differences they make to accuracy and ease? Can you use any conversion for any system and just need to adjust your indices?

In ModernBlackjack it shows FELT does better then RPC because "FELT uses full-deck divisors for true count calculation. This improves the precision of the betting ramp." Could I just do full deck divisors with RPC instead if I wanted that benefit but with the full indices that RPC has instead of compromised indices?

Thank you for your time!

Edit** accidentally typed heat twice

 

[moo321]

Hi lo works fine. Red 7 and KO work fine. Zen works fine if you play pitch and shoes.

Unless you're playing a lot of pitch games for a lot of hours, AND you're willing to memorize a lot of index plays, the simple counting systems are the way to go.

 

[GoodBJ]

It seems there's a 10% difference between simple systems and higher systems and I'd like that gain. Even though the gain is only over the long term and I can't predict the future but I may slowly build to playing full time. I'd rather start with a complex system than do a simple one and have to start over from scratch changing systems later on.

Memorizing index's doesn't seem like a big deal to me, and wouldn't I only really need the most important index's like Illustrious 18 and other similar ones? Couldn't I start with those and add more over time if it's needed for pitch games.

I'm picking the higher systems not just for their improved accuracy but the interest in taking up a mathematical hobby to keep me sharp. RC and TC for arithmetic and reading about how the systems work I can enjoy learning more and probability.

 

[FLASH1296]

Post some more and you will have the privilege of sending and receiving P.M.'s

At that point I will be better able to assist you.

 

[GoodBJ]

Thanks Flash1296! I'll remember to get back to you when I have more access!

 

[FLASH1296]

The O.P. said:

"I'm up to the challenge of higher counts and in western Canada we don't really have heat to worry about heat."

Heat ? The games in your neck of the woods have always been regarded as simply dreadful.

B.C. and Manitoba offer lousy H17 shoe games without compensating Late Surrender.

If you want to pursue playing BJ, especially with the simpler counts, I suggest that you migrate south.

:cool2:

 

[apex]

Go with Hi-Lo! Save the extra effort for other things.

 

[GoodBJ]

Heat ? The games in your neck of the woods have always been regarded as simply dreadful.

B.C. and Manitoba offer lousy H17 shoe games without compensating Late Surrender.

If you want to pursue playing BJ, especially with the simpler counts, I suggest that you migrate south.

Yeah I've definitely heard our games are crap. I won't be moving but once I become fluent in what ever system I pick I guess I should try making trips south to the good games. Maybe do pilgrimage to Vegas, there are some damn cheap flights to there.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Go with Hi-Lo! Save the extra effort for other things.

x2

 

[GoodBJ]

Apex and Dyepaintball12 are you recommending HiLo without the ace side count? And when you refer to saving effort for other things do you mean like an act/cover?

 

[Dyepaintball12]

Apex and Dyepaintball12 are you recommending HiLo without the ace side count? And when you refer to saving effort for other things do you mean like an act/cover?

I think the consensus on here is that since Ace's are already counted as -1 it's not necessary to side-count Aces but I know some people that do.

And yeah Hi/Lo is easy. Higher counts are more difficult so unless you really master them you may be giving up an edge by making mistakes.

- Dye

 

[FLASH1296]

Playing a Poor Game with a weak count is like facing a dangerous enemy with low caliber weapons.

I do not give bad advice.
I will bow out of this discussion.

 

[GoodBJ]

If I did do HiLo with an ace SC I'd only use it when playing pitch for extra PE and leave it out when playing shoes. From the ModernBlackjack charts it seems if I did Halves it would do well in pitch games without a ace side count (I still don't get why it does so well though with the low PE and IC).

While it's considered that L3's are much harder I think it would only be harder at the beginning and long term learning an L3 wouldn't be much different than a L1 because through practice/repetition the brain essentially does the same process memorizing one set of numbers and building fast recall as any other set of numbers.

It eventually becomes second nature the numbers just come to your head without consciously thinking about it. Once you get to that point high level single parameter shouldn't be harder than a low level single parameter counting comes naturally and you do the same amount of conversions as a lower system. It would take a bit longer than low level system but we're talking a couple extra months of practice which doesn't seem long to me.

I'm just realizing I think I may have made my decision already I do seem to like the idea of Halves more than HiLo ace SC the extra conversions would be a pain, and I don't like the idea of just HiLo no SC I'd want more power than that. But I'd still like to understand why Halves works well in pitch based on the charts, does anyone else here use it in pitch and have good results?

Edit** Adding that I also think I need more power to help fight against the shitty game rules I have here in Canada.

 

[zengrifter]

Hello folks I've been reading about BJ for a few months and trying to pick a system, I've built up a bunch of questions. Some of my questions though are just curiousities and aren't for helping me pick a system.

See - 'The Interview' :laugh:
(system selection, #indices, rounding, etc.) zg

 

[GoodBJ]

Fascinating article Zengrifter thank you. I definitely won't take my game to the tables until I understand the bet sizing that works for me, how to work in risk aversion, and which indices I'll need. I had read before that you don't need hundreds that mainly Il18 etc... are needed. I don't mind learning 60 if that is a good amount, I've memorized Japanese hiragana and katakana syllabic alphabets in a couple weeks. I expect learning indices to be the same. But I'm still unsure how I'd go about finding my indices. So I either take published indices for the system I choose or generate them from a program and then I just take the full list and cut out all but what are considered the most important hands? Which I find where? And if I round the selected indices it's personal choice?

 

[blackjack avenger]

Sorry I am Late

Your conclusions are good:
Halves is strong in pitch and shoes
Learn the catch 22 indicies
I would add fab 4 but you don't have surrender?

Halves does so well in shoes and pitch because It's BC is so strong that it carries it through, try to wong in/out some when you play.

An A side count adds very very little to Halves or I believe any count where the A is already counted.

If you decide to start with hi lo, the natural step up in complexity is halves, many of the indicies are the same. One could even decide to contiue using hi lo indicies with halves and it won't be a problem.

if you face h17 learn the bs and indicies for h17

 

[eandre]

GOODBJ- Learn a simple level one count first and get some table time as soon as you are proficient. There are many practical reasons to learn several different counting systems. Some of the most powerful ones are really too tiring mentally to play for very long and difficult to maintain cover when the heat is on. I am not, nor will I ever be, a theorist, but a realist who plays many weeks more than 40 hours. You find that your game and dealer selection are many times more important than you counting system. Your spreads, br, and your ability not to get backed off are also more important. In time you will realize that counting is not enough either, other skills required. Some author once said that it takes as much practice and dedication to the game to win money as it would take to be a scratch golfer or a bowler with a 240-250 average...and it does. You have to develop your own game, most people never will.

 

[GoodBJ]

Thank you BlackAvenger I'll be sure to find the Catch 22 indices. I could probably just google for them and Il18. You're right we don't have surrender in my city although I think a friend told me they do in BC or Alberta. It wouldn't hurt to learn Fab4 for when I do trips there or south.

Thank you Eandre, as BlackAvenger says HiLo and Halves are complimentary I supposed I could learn both and if I do get tired from Halves gear down to HiLo and use generally the same indexes for both.

If I'm going to do trips south to the good games I will need to learn the art of act and cover but in Canada we don't have heat so I could master my counting first without worry of cover and when I'm fluent begin working on cover. Even up here though I'd want to practice looking natural while I count I don't want to be some guy staring madly at the cards like I'm trying to invent E=mc2

 

[apex]

Apex and Dyepaintball12 are you recommending HiLo without the ace side count? And when you refer to saving effort for other things do you mean like an act/cover?

Yeah, forget the side count except maybe in single deck. My thought on counting is that you are keeping track to get a good idea of the composition of the deck. Higher level counts will give you a slightly better idea, but IMO it isn't that useful. For ideal play, like computers do in simulations, higher level counts perform better, and maybe they do in real life too. But if you are off by 1/8th deck in your TC conversion (I only do about half deck in shoe games), or you sometimes choose to bet a little higher or lower than the optimal ammount for cover or any number of other reasons you may decide that you aren't making good use of the tiny ammount of better info the higher level counts give. Now, that is just my take on it. I should add that I mostly play 6 deck games with large spreads AND I am not as experienced as others. Those who play smaller spreads in 1 or 2 deck games at high stakes have a good arguement for more complex counts.

Save the extra efforts for:
At home: Learning indicies, learning advanced strategies(read old threads on this site, others)
At Casino: Playing longer with the same amount of mental effort, counting 2 tables at one, keeping an eye out for heat, keeping an eye out for exposed cards.

 

[kewljason]

Playing a Poor Game with a weak count is like facing a dangerous enemy with low caliber weapons.

I do not give bad advice.
I will bow out of this discussion.

What is wrong with you Mr Flash? You used to argue this point until you were blue in the face with veins popping out of your forehead. Now you just bow out of the discussion giving in way too easy to those of us that are correct on this point. :laugh: I liked the old flash that had more fight to him.