Player’s Card

#1
I am considering grabbing a player’s card at my local casino. I originally decided not to because I didn’t like the idea of a casino tracking my play long term and identifying me as a winning player. Recently, I have thought about grabbing one because of the familiarity the pit bosses experience with a player who gives them a card. Another reason is the comps, as I always buy food there and can see the comps making a difference in my EV. The only thing stopping me from getting one is that I don’t know how they track my wins/losses. If they track them at the buy-in and then at the color up, I can just rathole chips valued higher than my EV and appear as if I’m a losing player.

If anyone has any suggestions, comments or questions, feel free to post. Thanks!
 
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#2
RatherNotGiveMyRealName said:
I am considering grabbing a player’s card at my local casino. I originally decided not to because I didn’t like the idea of a casino tracking my play long term and identifying me as a winning player. Recently, I have thought about grabbing one because of the familiarity the pit bosses experience when a player who gives them a card. Another reason is the comps, as I always buy food there and can see the comps making a difference in my EV. The only thing stopping me from getting one is that I don’t know how they track my wins/losses. If they track them at the buy-in and then at the color up, I can just rathole chips valued higher than my EV and appear as if I’m a losing player.

If anyone has any suggestions, comments or questions, feel free to post. Thanks!
If you play at any level that they are concerned with...trust me they are already tracking you with or without a card.
Yes ratholing definitely has it's place for longevity...but you can only do so much without being glaringly obvious to them. And if the wrong person notices that you are ratholing, well then you are toast.
My advice is to always play without a card...protect your identity...it is the most important thing you have! If playing for longevity obviously.
If you are a red chipper and think comps for a burger are good...then I guess get a card.
 
#3
Counting_Is_Fun said:
If you play at any level that they are concerned with...trust me they are already tracking you with or without a card.
Yes ratholing definitely has it's place for longevity...but you can only do so much without being glaringly obvious to them. And if the wrong person notices that you are ratholing, well then you are toast.
My advice is to always play without a card...protect your identity...it is the most important thing you have! If playing for longevity obviously.
If you are a red chipper and think comps for a burger are good...then I guess get a card.
That’s a good point; if someone catches me ratholing, it could be over. Although people do take chips elsewhere all the time, so I could play stupid if I’m caught. What do you think of the familiarity the pit feels if I present a card rather than deny playing with one?
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#4
RatherNotGiveMyRealName said:
Another reason is the comps, as I always buy food there and can see the comps making a difference in my EV.
Buy your own food. Trying to also get that lunch comp is what I call being penny wise and pound foolish.

You know what is much more important than a free meal "that is not really free in my mind" is the FREEDOM to wong out of shoes without looking like an ass, while not drawing more attention to yourself. Floor personnel is often busy and sometimes after taking your card can not get to it immediately and when they finally do you may be ready to change tables and your card may still be on a counter somewhere. In my opinion, whatever you decide to do when that happens is a bad choice. You either draw more attention from the pit by wonging out or if you stay and play a few extra hands cost you REAL EV by not only playing the extra few hands played in negative EV situations but you also lost time spent doing so instead of looking for another shoe to play. Bottom line is do less wonging out if you must use a player's card.
 
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#5
BoSox said:
Buy your own food. Trying to also get that lunch comp is what I call being penny wise and pound foolish.

You know what is much more important than a free meal "that is not really free in my mind" is the FREEDOM to wong out of shoes without looking like an ass, while not drawing more attention to yourself. Floor personnel is often busy and sometimes after taking your card can not get to it immediately and when they finally do you may be ready to change tables and your card may still be on a counter somewhere. In my opinion, whatever you decide to do when that happens is a bad choice. You either draw more attention from the pit by wonging out or if you stay and play a few extra hands cost you REAL EV by not only playing the extra few hands played in negative EV situations but you also lost time spent doing so instead of looking for another shoe to play. Bottom line is do less wonging out if you must use a player's card.

I usually just play all at this place because wonging seems like it would draw unwanted attention. If the shoes goes really negative, I will usually go to the bathroom or take a walk, but I’m usually at the same table for a little bit of time.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#6
RatherNotGiveMyRealName said:
I usually just play all at this place because wonging seems like it would draw unwanted attention. If the shoes goes really negative, I will usually go to the bathroom or take a walk, but I’m usually at the same table for a little bit of time.
You know what else draws attention besides periodically wonging out is the larger the spread required to beat a game in a play all situations. With the play, all approach and the bigger spread used adds to the volatility as well. You need to have a positive edge to beat the game so your choice is using larger spreads with little to no wonging out, or, beating the game on your own terms with less risk. I will take the latter approach every time.
 
#7
BoSox said:
You know what else draws attention besides periodically wonging out is the larger the spread required to beat a game in a play all situations. With the play, all approach and the bigger spread used adds to the volatility as well. You need to have a positive edge to beat the game so your choice is using larger spreads with little to no wonging out, or, beating the game on your own terms with less risk. I will take the latter approach every time.
You’re probably right. It would all depend on the difference in EV when I wong/not wong and the difference in EV when I use certain spreads over others. That’s why I really need to get CV software and sim my game. The only reason why I haven’t done it yet is that the counting system I use is not an option in CVCX or CVDATA that I know of and I don’t know how accurate the results would be. I use a depth-based true count of KO, meaning that I have memorized points at certain decks remaining at which a Hi-Lo true count is reached. For example, at 4 decks remaining (and an IRC of -20), I have memorized -12, -8, -4, 0, 4, corresponding with true counts of 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively. Do you know of any way to input this into the software? It’s similar to Dravot’s “Color of Blackjack” but I can’t edit indices on “Color of Blackjack” and it’s not the exact same.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#8
RatherNotGiveMyRealName said:
Do you know of any way to input this into the software? It’s similar to Dravot’s “Color of Blackjack” but I can’t edit indices on “Color of Blackjack” and it’s not the exact same.
Sorry, I cannot help you here as using the software is my weak area.
 

Dopple

Well-Known Member
#10
Two points here: Would it really matter that much which system you use to get an good idea of the outcome in CVCX? I dunno, but I would think the results would be fairly close IMHO. As far as the ratholing goes, what if your girlfriend were to come by the table and you gave her a stack of chips to go play with? That would have the same effect as ratholing, are they going to note your chart that she took some chips or watch where she goes with them? Thats all I had. What a mellow post, no fighting, I like it.
 
#11
Dopple said:
Two points here: Would it really matter that much which system you use to get an good idea of the outcome in CVCX? I dunno, but I would think the results would be fairly close IMHO. As far as the ratholing goes, what if your girlfriend were to come by the table and you gave her a stack of chips to go play with? That would have the same effect as ratholing, are they going to note your chart that she took some chips or watch where she goes with them? Thats all I had. What a mellow post, no fighting, I like it.
I’d imagine that the Hi-Lo sims would be quite similar to the “Color KO” sims, if they existed, but I can’t be sure. I’ve emailed QFIT support inquiring about how they calculate TKO or REKO-T to see if they are in line with my depth-based strategy. As for the ratholing issue, I like your idea of handing off chips to a girlfriend. I have the chips, now all I need is the girlfriend. In all seriousness though, I just need to find out how they track my session wins/losses. If they record them at the color up, then I may get a card and rathole.
 

KewlJ

Well-Known Member
#12
There are pros and cons to the players card debate and I think a player needs to weight them based on his/her own circumstances. Here are some things to consider both ways.

Some pros are obviously playing rated may produce some additional EV. You may get some sort of mailer with free bet or match play offers that serve as direct EV. You may generate points that can be turned into cash or some sort of free play which would also be direct additional EV. You may get some sort of food offers ($xx food credit, free buffets or even 2for1 buffets), that I would call indirect EV, if it saves you money you would otherwise spend on food. If you travel far to play and end up paying for a room, that same indirect EV can work if you get free or discounted room offers.

This kind of additional EV, can be particularly beneficial to a lower limit player and/or a player trying to grow his/her BR. BUT, the problem is that most casinos don't offer much anymore for blackjack play and especially at lower limits. Some casinos no longer even rate you at low limits.

Now the cons, playing rated means the casino has your personal information. It also means they have a record of your play and if you are a winning player, playing a winning game, that can quickly and easily become obvious. When playing rated, players often start ratholing chips to try to hide that they are a winning player. And that has the potential to backfire quite severely. If a casino suspects you of ratholing and notes it on your record, you will then be "credited" with any and all chips that they otherwise can't account for. That is the last thing you want, so I would be very careful with any ratholing. I think the best ratholing technique is to combine with bathroom break "wong out", and simply rathole just a couple green (never black) chips in the bathroom, out of sight from camera. You only need to rat hole EV or slightly more. Most players do way too much.

If you are a player that most of your play takes place at a small number of casinos, you become somewhat "known" and playing unrated probably doesn't even buy you anything. In that situation, the casino is likely still tracking your play, even if you play unrated. They simply assign some sort of code name to you, so you are losing any benefit from playing unrated and might as well get what additional EV you can. Also at a local type place, playing unrated stands out a little more. Most players want whatever comp and freebies they get. Someone refusing is a little odd. Where if you are playing Vegas or somewhere like that, it isn't nearly as unusual to play unrated. You can give all sorts of excuses like I would be back for a long time, to I only have a few minutes.

So like most things there is no one right answer. Jjust figure out what works for you and your situation, weigh the pros and cons.
 
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#13
KewlJ said:
There are pros and cons to the players card debate and I think a player needs to weight them based on his/her own circumstances. Here are some things to consider both ways.

Some pros are obviously playing rated may produce some additional EV. You may get some sort of mailer with free bet or match play offers that serve as direct EV. You may generate points that can be turned into cash or some sort of free play which would also be direct additional EV. You may get some sort of food offers ($xx food credit, free buffets or even 2for1 buffets), that I would call indirect EV, if it saves you money you would otherwise spend on food. If you travel far to play and end up paying for a room, that same indirect EV can work if you get free or discounted room offers.

This kind of additional EV, can be particularly beneficial to a lower limit player and/or a player trying to grow his/her BR. BUT, the problem is that most casinos don't offer much anymore for blackjack play and especially at lower limits. Some casinos no longer even rate you at low limits.

Now the cons, playing rated means the casino has your personal information. It also means they have a record of your play and if you are a winning player, playing a winning game, that can quickly and easily become obvious. When playing rated, players often start ratholing chips to try to hide that they are a winning player. And that has the potential to backfire quite severely. If a casino suspects you of ratholing and notes it on your record, you will then be "credited" with any and all chips that they otherwise can't account for. That is the last thing you want, so I would be very careful with any ratholing. I think the best ratholing technique is to combine with bathroom break "wong out", and simply rathole just a couple green chips in the bathroom, out of sight from camera. You only need to rat hole EV or slightly more. Most players do way too much.

If you are a player that most of your play takes place at a small number of casinos, you become somewhat "known" and playing unrated probably doesn't even buy you anything. In that situation, the casino is likely still tracking your play, even if you play unrated. They simply assign some sort of code name to you, so you are losing any benefit from playing unrated and might as well get what additional EV you can. Also at a local type place, playing unrated stands out a little more. Most players want whatever comp and freebies they get. Someone refusing is a little odd. Where if you are playing Vegas or somewhere like that, it isn't nearly as unusual to play unrated. You can give all sorts of excuses like I would be back for a long time, to I only have a few minutes.

So like most things there is no one right answer. Jjust figure out what works for you and your situation, weigh the pros and cons.
This is extremely concise and sums up just about everything to consider about player’s cards; thank you. You are right that it is different depending on where you play and what you are looking for. The first thing I will say is that longevity is paramount for me. I have one big Indian casino that I play at that’s a 30-minute drive and has incredible rules. If I weren’t able to go there anymore, I would have to drive well over an hour for mediocre rules and much, much more heat.

I do consider food comps to be EV (depending on how measurably given out they are) as I am always at this place long enough to have to eat. If I knew what the comps would be like it would make this decision easier, but I don’t know how to find that info short of just signing up for one.

As for ratholing, I have no problem getting a player’s card and ratholing if:

1. The casino records your win/loss only at color up

2. There’s a very safe way to do it (cameras unlikely to catch me, chips are unlikely to be traced back to me)

I have one thing going for me; the place I play at is massive. I haven’t counted (ironically), but I imagine there are upwards of 30 blackjack tables at this place. This means that I can play for a while, color up, then go to another section of the place and buy-in and play some more. I get to choose my pit boss (and I usually pick the 5’1 asian lady over the 6’3 big dude). I go here once a week, varying between Friday, Saturday and Sunday, but I play for at least 6 hours each session, with food and bathroom breaks. I’m not sure how willing or capable they are of recognizing and tracking me with that sort of a schedule.

I appreciate the time spent to help me work this out as this is a long run gig for me and this decision is probably a big one (or it’s not and I’m an idiot). If you have any comments or questions for me given this information, feel free to post. I appreciate it man; thank you.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#14
RatherNotGiveMyRealName said:
The first thing I will say is that longevity is paramount for me.
RatherNotGiveMyRealName said:
I go here once a week, varying between Friday, Saturday and Sunday, but I play for at least 6 hours each session, with food and bathroom breaks.
I do not mean to criticize here, but the two above quotes, in my opinion, do not work together. You are asking for trouble especially if longevity is a priority to you.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#15
As I'm only in Vegas a couple of times a year, I generally use a player's card and play a mildly profitable or breakeven game at my "home" casino, with reasonable measures taken to ensure longevity, and blast away anonymously at other properties (still with reasonably short sessions though). This seems to work ok, as it keeps the room/free bet offers coming, which have some meaningful value for an out-of-towner. I doubt I'd do that if I were a local.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#16
There was one property where I was doing other non-counting types of plays for quite a while, and it was impossible to do so anonymously (bets were much higher than other patrons, and I played full shifts), so I used a card and took the comps. They did eventually evaluate my play, and couldn't figure out what I was doing, so they left me alone. I'm still welcome there.
 
#17
BoSox said:
I do not mean to criticize here, but the two above quotes, in my opinion, do not work together. You are asking for trouble especially if longevity is a priority to you.
You can criticize me all you want; that’s what I’m here for. Is once a week too often of a trip for longevity? And how long should I play so as to reduce heat? Would more breaks help and how long should they be? I’ve been doing this for a couple months now and have had no trouble.
 
#18
johndoe said:
There was one property where I was doing other non-counting types of plays for quite a while, and it was impossible to do so anonymously (bets were much higher than other patrons, and I played full shifts), so I used a card and took the comps. They did eventually evaluate my play, and couldn't figure out what I was doing, so they left me alone. I'm still welcome there.
Did you rathole chips there? And, from your experience, is getting a player’s card and ratholing a viable strategy for local longevity? Another thing to consider is that they may already know and recognize me anyway.
 

BoSox

Well-Known Member
#19
RatherNotGiveMyRealName said:
You can criticize me all you want; that’s what I’m here for. Is once a week too often of a trip for longevity? And how long should I play so as to reduce heat? Would more breaks help and how long should they be? I’ve been doing this for a couple months now and have had no trouble.
Let's put this into reality, fifty-two times a year you are showing them your game at six-plus hours each and every time you go. Do you think that it is possible that someone is going to see that you may know something?
 
#20
BoSox said:
Let's put this into reality, fifty-two times a year you are showing them your game at six-plus hours each and every time you go. Do you think that it is possible that someone is going to see that you may know something?
That’s a good point. Another thing to consider is that it is a massive place with three separate areas of around 10 blackjack tables each. There are also people betting way more than me and I get to pick my pit boss (of which there are many). This definitely would make it hard for any of the floor people to recognize me, so my main concern is the eye in the sky, and I have little idea how that operates.
 
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