Playing Continuous Shuffle Machines

[Anonymous2008]

All of the Local Casinos where I live are using Continuous Shuffle Machines. I have avoided playing on them. One table interests me. A $25-$1500.If you play Basic Strategy and use a progression to gamble up on your winnings using say a Dahl Progression can you beat these machines? I know here have seen posts relating to shuffle machines, but I cannot dig them up. Most of the other Tables in the Casino where I play have low caps that are not good for progessions. $10 & $15 tables with $300 limits. How you play and win on these Machines?

 

[Sonny]

If you play Basic Strategy and use a progression to gamble up on your winnings using say a Dahl Progression can you beat these machines?

No, not in the long run. Progression systems do not give you an advantage so it doesn't really matter how they shuffle the cards:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=7109

-Sonny-

 

[Anonymous2008]

So do you play on Continuous Shuffle Machines or not.If so, how do you beat them? I have started playing Craps more then Blackjack.Have Continuous Shuffle Machines killed the game? What can you do about it. There are few if any Casinos that do not use these Machines.We stop playing or what?

 

[Sonny]

The CSMs make the game safe from card counters and shuffle trackers. There are sometimes other ways to beat them but it is very rarely worthwhile. Try to avoid playing against them whenever you can. They are evil.

-Sonny-

 

[zengrifter]

The CSMs make the game safe from card counters and shuffle trackers.

Card counter should be able to beat them - the count STILL rises and falls... right? zg

 

[davidpom]

I'm not a fan of CSM's these days, based upon hours of personal play against them. Sadly nearly all land based casinos have these now, and they've really changed the game of traditional blackjack as we know it. The game plays faster with no human shuffling, and the 4-deck shoe might as well be perpetual... all of those small cards in there, all of the time. I once saw the dealer get an 8 card 21. i've NEVER seen that on a shoe dealt game, and I've played for over 10 years. To me, it does seem that the house is "luckier" on CSM's than on standard table shoes... perhaps that's just been my experience.

You mention articles about CSM's. I wrote one some time ago that you can access here (Archive copy). It might be of use.

Re ZenGrifters comments on counting: the only way I've found any "count" to be helpful is when playing multiple boxes (ie whole table) against the dealer. In doing this, you might get say 20 cards shown with a 7-box against the dealer situation. As there are already 15-20 cards in the "drop" box at the front of the shoe when these cards go in the back, you know that these cards just played cannot be at the front. On that basis you could perform a mini "true count" using the 15-20 cards you've seen... but from experience, that's a small number against the 208 cards total in the machine on which to get a genuine "edge".

 

[ccl]

the house does seem luckier with the machines, i regularly beat them at one place in MS but its nothing but playing BS and pure luck. In calif. i played several times over the course of maybe 8-9 hours, pushed every blackjack i had and the dealers always seemed to end up with hitting stiff hands to 21 almost every hand, or at least beat the table buy one

 

[ihate17]

Loads and loads of casinos

I'm not a fan of CSM's these days, based upon hours of personal play against them. Sadly nearly all land based casinos have these now, and they've really changed the game of traditional blackjack as we know it.

Perhaps I have played blackjack in 35 different casinos this year and over 50 during the past few years and have never put a nickel down on the felt of a table with a CSM. Sure many casinos have these machines but they are only on the lowest of low minimum tables. That is unless you are playing ouytside the U.S.

ihate17

 

[UK-21]

Re ZenGrifters comments on counting: the only way I've found any "count" to be helpful is when playing multiple boxes (ie whole table) against the dealer. In doing this, you might get say 20 cards shown with a 7-box against the dealer situation. As there are already 15-20 cards in the "drop" box at the front of the shoe when these cards go in the back, you know that these cards just played cannot be at the front. On that basis you could perform a mini "true count" using the 15-20 cards you've seen... but from experience, that's a small number against the 208 cards total in the machine on which to get a genuine "edge".

I've made several postings on the subject of CSMs - I reckon as well as removing the advantage that comes with counting down a whole shoe, they also dilute away the extremes of edge (both for and against the player) via the continual shuffling process - ie you won't get the benefit of a whole shoe where a significant number of small cards are behind the cutoff, and where overall for that shoe the odds will favour the player.

As to the advantage that can be gained, having had a moment of weakness and played against one, I reckon that two rounds of cards are unlikely to reappear at anytime - the round just played and the one before that where it's unlikely that any of those cards will appear in the next round to be dealt. With a full table of 7 players an advantage will present itself occasionally, but will only be good for a single round, or two at most, and then it'll be gone.

I was discussing CSMs in a casino once, and came out with a convincing arguement that the continuing shuffle process doubled the HE and that combined with players making mistakes or deviating from BS just one time in 50 hands it produced a game that was up there with three card poker, let 'em ride etc. You could see ears of people playing starting to twitch.

In summary, to be avoided.

 

[UK-21]

Perhaps I have played blackjack in 35 different casinos this year and over 50 during the past few years and have never put a nickel down on the felt of a table with a CSM. Sure many casinos have these machines but they are only on the lowest of low minimum tables. That is unless you are playing ouytside the U.S.

ihate17

In Greece, I've been told it's a requirement of the State gaming licence that card games are dealt from a CSM. So there's not a single place in the whole country where you can find a traditional shoe dealt game.

On the UK Gambling Commission's website (in the public documents area) there is a submission from Shufflemaster Inc on why the UK should move over to mandatory CSMs for BJ and other card dealt games. I think it was made in 2005. Lots of nonsense in it around how they benefit the player by eradicating the risks of dealer collusion and the negative impact of APs. Thankfully, the GC have not made it mandatory and left it up to individual operators as to whether they wish to use CSMs or not (more than likely on the grounds that it would be unfair to insist on their use as there is no competition in the market to provide them). Somebody in Greece obviously took a different view - and no doubt a few personal interests somewhere were enhanced along the way.

I think the only way the march of the CSMs is going to be halted is if Shufflemaster Inc bite the dust - possible in the current environment, although all of that regular monthly leasing cashflow would be attractive to someone to take them over if they go down. What is really needed is some sort of gadget that emits a single electro-magnetic pulse that can f--ck up the chip inside and render it unusable. All James Bond stuff but it'd be fun to watch every one in a casino seize up. Shufflemaster Inc would then have to start building them out of lead, or make them EMP proof and the resultant cost increase that was passed onto the customer would leave them uneconomical to lease. Propeller heads please apply! :laugh:

 

[zengrifter]

You mention articles about CSM's. I wrote one some time ago that you can access here (Archive copy). It might be of use.

Pom's Disclaimer:

Important Disclaimer:
The information provided on this website is to be used for entertainment purposes only.
It should not be used as a substitute for seeking professional advice.
​

 

[Katweezel]

Backroom bound device

In Greece, I've been told it's a requirement of the State gaming licence that card games are dealt from a CSM. So there's not a single place in the whole country where you can find a traditional shoe dealt game.

On the UK Gambling Commission's website (in the public documents area) there is a submission from Shufflemaster Inc on why the UK should move over to mandatory CSMs for BJ and other card dealt games. I think it was made in 2005. Lots of nonsense in it around how they benefit the player by eradicating the risks of dealer collusion and the negative impact of APs. Thankfully, the GC have not made it mandatory and left it up to individual operators as to whether they wish to use CSMs or not (more than likely on the grounds that it would be unfair to insist on their use as there is no competition in the market to provide them). Somebody in Greece obviously took a different view - and no doubt a few personal interests somewhere were enhanced along the way.

I think the only way the march of the CSMs is going to be halted is if Shufflemaster Inc bite the dust - possible in the current environment, although all of that regular monthly leasing cashflow would be attractive to someone to take them over if they go down. What is really needed is some sort of gadget that emits a single electro-magnetic pulse that can f--ck up the chip inside and render it unusable. All James Bond stuff but it'd be fun to watch every one in a casino seize up. Shufflemaster Inc would then have to start building them out of lead, or make them EMP proof and the resultant cost increase that was passed onto the customer would leave them uneconomical to lease. Propeller heads please apply! :laugh:

They catch you with one of those gadgets, Newb, and you ain't never getting out of their backroom!:flame:

 

[Katweezel]

There IS a way to beat the !!?()#~! things!

Reading recent posts here on CSMs tweaked my memory about an incident I saw at Jupiters casino (Gold Coast Aust.) more than 3 years ago. A pal and I walked onto the main floor and noticed an unusual crowd gathered around a $25 min $1000 max CSM BJ table. (We both shared the same beliefs about CSMs, which is that they can't really be beaten and so they are like slots, only there for suckers.)

Imagine our surprise when we edged our way through the rubbernecks to find a lone 40-ish man playing all 7 boxes AND each box carrying the max bet, one grand. Neither of us had ever seen anyone in a full frontal attack like this on a CSM, (and we have not seen one since.) The bigger surprise was he was UP +$120K.

Later, a dealer told us the guy won $180K at that table. (Can somebody calculate the odds against achieving +180 units profit in one 8 or 9-hour CSM session, with no card counting, just perfect BS, playing like this, at 7 grand a round? Or was this just one of the biggest streaks in the short history of the CSM?)

I settled down and watched him for over an hour. He looked like your average Joe TV salesman without the suit. Clean-cut, well-dressed, no rings or ornaments, stylish, new leather shoes, enjoying playing up for the envious crowd of hoos and haaas when the dealer busted and he occasionally won all 7 or more hands on one round!

I had the idea this guy might be a casino plant and if so, what a great gig! Many onlookers were highly impressed with his confident play; doubles and splits all done to perfect BS; even doubling 11 V A at this casino where you get your double back if she makes BJ. Here was the living proof all the mugs have known forever: these infernal things CAN be beaten... Right. You just need 7 grand to start with, see?

I also noticed things of benefit playing like this. 1 He scores heaps more blackjacks than the dealer's measly 1:21 hands. He gets the same math-rate of course, but he has 7 hands V D1.

2 In the case of this being a 'lucky table' (you there Josh?) the dealer can be absolutely overwhelmed and obliterated by sheer force of numbers when 'the flow of cards' is in the player's favour. (You there again Josh?)

3 When the dealer is having an 'unlucky streak of busts or losses' the player seems to win heaps quickly. Of course the opposite of these positives is just as likely isn't it... But on this occasion, this guy's mojo was working just great. I wonder if it still is?

Has anyone else seen such a successful CSM attack brazenly carried out with such aplomb and confidence, over such a long session?:cat:

 

[UK-21]

If you accept that there is some latency in the recycling of cards played, and as a result there will be instances where the edge moves in favour of the player, then playing all boxes on a table and putting out the table max on those few occasions could well pay dividends. Some spread though? - 7 x $5 to 7 x $1,000 in a single jump. If you had the money to burn, it'd be a crack to have a go at this, just to prove that the Shufflemaster salesman was telling porkies all along (when he said "don't worry, they're completely AP proof".).

I did stumble across a posting on a BB somewhere (long since disappeared into the ether) where a PB posed a question on whether a CSM could be beaten or not - he said that, on review, it looked like a team of players had taken one of the CSM pits he was responsible for to the cleaners for several thousand $$$s, something that had never happened before.

If I win the lottery, I might have a go one evening myself. Hope yet?

 

[Sonny]

...it'd be a crack to have a go at this, just to prove that the Shufflemaster salesman was telling porkies all along (when he said "don't worry, they're completely AP proof".).

Ha ha, yeah no kidding. Every shuffling machine I’ve ever seen has had the potential to be beaten. I think most casinos are aware of it to some degree and take appropriate countermeasures, but occasionally you might stumble across an uneducated pit that doesn’t know how to use the machines or protect the game properly. It’s money in the bank when that happens.

-Sonny-

 

[tribute]

There have been many discussions on this board regarding CSM's. Since the cards are continuously re-inserted and shuffled, it's obvious to me that card counting is not possible. Some small advantage may be gained by the basic strategy player due to the "cut card effect", but even this is diminished by the speed of additional hands per hour on a negative expectation game. To me, it is not an "evil" machine that the casinos use to exploit the uninformed and uneducated. I have had sessions where I really got hammered on 2D and 6D games, then moved over to a CSM and recover my losses. The CSM will certainly never be my first choice when walking into the casino!