playing heads up with neg count

[kewljason]

My style of play is to play off the top off a shoe and wong out at negative counts of -1 or more. Occasonally the count will tank so quickly that I am at my departure point after only 2 or 3 hands. It seems highly unnatural and suspicious to me to leave when playing heads up with the dealer, especially if you have won those two hands.

example: Sit down at empty six deck table. Wait while dealer shuffles. Dealer burns 10, first hand my ten,ten beats the dealers ten, eight. (running count minus 4). Second hand my BJ beats dealers ten,ten. Running count is now minus eight, true count greater than -1, and at my departure point. I walk, mumbling some lame excuse, but can feel the dealer (who just went through the shuffle for nothing) and nearby pit critter's stare. I wouldn't care except that I play the same small rotation of casinos over and over seeing the same dealers and pit, week after week. I know this is suspicious as a ploppy wouldn't wait through the shuffle, play two hands and leave. For this reason, I prefer to play off the top with one other player. If I leave after two hands then, the game doesn't come to a complete halt and it's not quite so bad. Wondering how you guys handle this situation?

 

[non-self-weighter]

I only leave after losing a hand

 

[kewljason]

I only leave after losing a hand

ok, well that doesn't really change the senerio that much. Wait through the shuffle, play two hands, winning one, losing one, walk away, leaving the dealer standing there. Still very suspicious.

 

[Albee]

Leaving after a couple hands

I agree....does not look right if you walk away after two or three winning hands.

As others can also relate, I have been on some shoes where the count was negitive but I kept winning.....so I stayed.

What I might do, would be keep playing till you had a loss, then say....my luck ran out. I'll be back in a bit. Then leave.

 

[bjcount]

Since your enjoying that rare heads up opportunity, I would look at lowering my departure point. If the counts still falling and your winning/pushing you may be in that high card slug you wished you were prepared for. .

Once the counts bottomed, leveled off, or starts to come up, leave. It's show time for those little cards.

BJC

edit: Running count is now minus eight, true count greater than -1, you mean lower than -1

 

[rukus]

My style of play is to play off the top off a shoe and wong out at negative counts of -1 or more. Occasonally the count will tank so quickly that I am at my departure point after only 2 or 3 hands. It seems highly unnatural and suspicious to me to leave when playing heads up with the dealer, especially if you have won those two hands.

example: Sit down at empty six deck table. Wait while dealer shuffles. Dealer burns 10, first hand my ten,ten beats the dealers ten, eight. (running count minus 4). Second hand my BJ beats dealers ten,ten. Running count is now minus eight, true count greater than -1, and at my departure point. I walk, mumbling some lame excuse, but can feel the dealer (who just went through the shuffle for nothing) and nearby pit critter's stare. I wouldn't care except that I play the same small rotation of casinos over and over seeing the same dealers and pit, week after week. I know this is suspicious as a ploppy wouldn't wait through the shuffle, play two hands and leave. For this reason, I prefer to play off the top with one other player. If I leave after two hands then, the game doesn't come to a complete halt and it's not quite so bad. Wondering how you guys handle this situation?

if you must wait around for the dealer to reshuffle (ie there are no other tables to play), your optimal departure point would no longer be -1, so you need to look at figuring out a new departure point based on the fact that you have no other tables to go find. it might lower the count by a half or full point, i am not sure. good place to look would be BJA3 study between no delay vs delay to get some sense.

as for practicality, you need to come up with some excuses for getting up. or just stay a bit longer at the table and raise your spread to make up for it...

 

[kewljason]

if you must wait around for the dealer to reshuffle (ie there are no other tables to play), your optimal departure point would no longer be -1, so you need to look at figuring out a new departure point based on the fact that you have no other tables to go find. it might lower the count by a half or full point, i am not sure. good place to look would be BJA3 study between no delay vs delay to get some sense.

Waiting around isn't an issue. There are always other tables nearby or another casino nearby.

 

[rukus]

Waiting around isn't an issue. There are always other tables nearby or another casino nearby.

Then there should be no problem leaving a table after losing a hand. i see dealers waiting around not shuffling all the time. maybe wait till you lose 2 in a row to avoid doing it so often and just bump your spread up a bit? use that quoted line about changing your luck maybe.

 

[sagefr0g]

My style of play is to play off the top off a shoe and wong out at negative counts of -1 or more. Occasonally the count will tank so quickly that I am at my departure point after only 2 or 3 hands. It seems highly unnatural and suspicious to me to leave when playing heads up with the dealer, especially if you have won those two hands.

example: Sit down at empty six deck table. Wait while dealer shuffles. Dealer burns 10, first hand my ten,ten beats the dealers ten, eight. (running count minus 4). Second hand my BJ beats dealers ten,ten. Running count is now minus eight, true count greater than -1, and at my departure point. I walk, mumbling some lame excuse, but can feel the dealer (who just went through the shuffle for nothing) and nearby pit critter's stare. I wouldn't care except that I play the same small rotation of casinos over and over seeing the same dealers and pit, week after week. I know this is suspicious as a ploppy wouldn't wait through the shuffle, play two hands and leave. For this reason, I prefer to play off the top with one other player. If I leave after two hands then, the game doesn't come to a complete halt and it's not quite so bad. Wondering how you guys handle this situation?

i do the same thiing, religiously, lol. thing is i'm a recreational player so i can afford to take my time about it. i might not return to the tables for 15 minutes to 45 minutes or so. that is after winning a few units or so which is my expectation for an hour anyway.
alternatively if i haven't won a few units or so, i'll sit and play more hoping to win eventually. that said even in play all mode i'll go into potty break or cigarette break mode if the count tanks enough.
probably this sort of an approach wouldn't do it for you though, as i think your looking to get in as many hands as possible.

 

[kewljason]

Then there should be no problem leaving a table after losing a hand. i see dealers waiting around not shuffling all the time. maybe wait till you lose 2 in a row to avoid doing it so often and just bump your spread up a bit? use that quoted line about changing your luck maybe.

I think maybe you missed the point of the post. I am able to wong out and play a different table. I am a bit concerned with how bad it looks to do so after 2 hands. Remember that I play the same casinos several times each week.

 

[JSTAT]

I think maybe you missed the point of the post. I am able to wong out and play a different table. I am a bit concerned with how bad it looks to do so after 2 hands. Remember that I play the same casinos several times each week.

Wait till a ploppy sits down to play with you, then leave. That's what ploppies are for. They never go away. One leaves and another will plop.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I think maybe you missed the point of the post. I am able to wong out and play a different table. I am a bit concerned with how bad it looks to do so after 2 hands. Remember that I play the same casinos several times each week.

Yell out "This game effing suckkkkks!" and stomp away, like a madman. If it's not as natural for you to act like that as it is for me, try a few drinks first. I am absolutely serious!

I'm assuming you are playing in AC, which means there really are no standards for behavior and language. So you can make your leaving look like what an unstable, irascible jerk does, rather than what an advantage player does. Just don't verbally abuse any person nor hint at violence, and they'll be totally cool with it.

But be very careful about letting that attitude become more than just an act!

 

[kewljason]

I can see doing that if you have lost two hands, Monkey, but doesn't make much sense to stomp away after playing two hands and winning both (one a BJ). You are definately right about AC though. There apparently are no rules for proper behavior. :laugh: and it seems to be getting worse.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I can see doing that if you have lost two hands, Monkey, but doesn't make much sense to stomp away after playing two hands and winning both (one a BJ). You are definately right about AC though. There apparently are no rules for proper behavior. :laugh: and it seems to be getting worse.

Oh that's easy, just wait until you lose or push a hand. I was using that approach once and I got all the way to the end of the shoe! Of course everyone was curious- "Why aren't you raising your bet?"

The behavior in AC can be appalling but it is what it is, you can use it for camo.

 

[rukus]

I can see doing that if you have lost two hands, Monkey, but doesn't make much sense to stomp away after playing two hands and winning both (one a BJ). You are definately right about AC though. There apparently are no rules for proper behavior. :laugh: and it seems to be getting worse.

i dont think i missed the point, i just dont see why its wrong to leave after LOSING two hands in a row. seems fair enough to me that the table may be "unlucky" or the dealer "too hot" and you want to try another shoe. if in a negative count i keep winning the hand i usually will not walk away either. but once i do lose i will leave. this is particularly what i do in AC, where as you and AM agree (as do i), there are plenty of people who act like nuts and play one hand then not the next but then play the 3rd one, etc.

 

[ihate17]

What I might do

I think maybe you missed the point of the post. I am able to wong out and play a different table. I am a bit concerned with how bad it looks to do so after 2 hands. Remember that I play the same casinos several times each week.

In your situation, as a regular in that casino, I would play a few more hands and then nicely say to the dealer, "I have a bad feeling about this shoe and you know a bad shoe heads up can feel like it lasts FOREVER!" I think you will find that most dealers will agree with you.
You just can not do this table after table though without it wearing thin.

ihate17

 

[kewljason]

i dont think i missed the point, i just dont see why its wrong to leave after LOSING two hands in a row. seems fair enough to me that the table may be "unlucky" or the dealer "too hot" and you want to try another shoe. if in a negative count i keep winning the hand i usually will not walk away either. but once i do lose i will leave. this is particularly what i do in AC, where as you and AM agree (as do i), there are plenty of people who act like nuts and play one hand then not the next but then play the 3rd one, etc.

You are right rukus, it would be more normal to walk after losing two hands. The Original question was "what do you do if you have played two hands, won them both, and the count has tanked to your departure point??

I also don't entirely agree with either yourself of monkey that you keep playing until you lose. Just because you won the last hand is no reason to play through negative counts. If the true count is minus 2, I dont want to play. Period. I wouldn't sit down and start playing with a true count of -2, so I'm not going to play even one more hand, regardless of the results of the last hand. Especially if I had won! why would I want to give that money back by playing in a negative expected value situation?

I do appreciate your replies and everyones thoughts though.

 

[bjcount]

I wouldn't sit down and start playing with a true count of -2, so I'm not going to play even one more hand, regardless of the results of the last hand. Especially if I had won! why would I want to give that money back by playing in a negative expected value situation?

How do you know you will give the money back? How do you know it's going to be neg ev when you just sat down and didn't see the previous shoe?

Your making a determination based on seeing 8 cards out of 312 or 416. If the next 2 round produced small cards your neutral.

I think your just sticking with your normal MO and thats run at -1.

If your not back counting you can run into this all day long so does that mean you will play two rounds per table like those guys with the free bets? Play the one hand, lose, and leave?

Just my opinion.

BJC

EDIT: The Original question was "what do you do if you have played two hands, won them both, and the count has tanked to your departure point?? I wouldn't consider a -1 point move "tanking" since you started at 0 and a minimum bet. Or did you parlay your win on the first round, won a big second hand bj and didnt want to lower your bet with the falling count, giving you a logical reason for leaving?

 

[Mr. Francks]

quick departures

I agree that it looks odd to leave a table after just a few hands, especially when playing heads up. When I sit down at an empty table I will often indicate that I only have a short time to play (waiting for my wife, dinner reservations etc.) to allow for some amount of cover in the event that the shoe tanks quickly. If it happens I usually look at my phone, indicate that I have a message that it's time to go, and head off. Obviously at this point I move on to another casino. That's easy to do in AC - and you can always come back "after dinner".

 

[kewljason]

How do you know you will give the money back? How do you know it's going to be neg ev when you just sat down and didn't see the previous shoe?
Your making a determination based on seeing 8 cards out of 312 or 416. If the next 2 round produced small cards your neutral.
I think your just sticking with your normal MO and thats run at -1.
If your not back counting you can run into this all day long so does that mean you will play two rounds per table like those guys with the free bets? Play the one hand, lose, and leave?
Just my opinion.
BJC
EDIT: The Original question was "what do you do if you have played two hands, won them both, and the count has tanked to your departure point?? I wouldn't consider a -1 point move "tanking" since you started at 0 and a minimum bet. Or did you parlay your win on the first round, won a big second hand bj and didnt want to lower your bet with the falling count, giving you a logical reason for leaving?

I must say must say I dont understand some of your points.

1.) how do I know its going to be neg EV? The true count is -2. I know the next hand is neg EV!
2.) whats the last shoe have to do with it, if your not shuffle tracking, which I didn't mention?
3.) I didn't say anything about parlaying. I start the shoe with my minimun bet, so how can I lower it?

I guess I didn't express myself clearly on what my concerns is, so I will try again. here is my style of play.
1.) Start at the biginning of new shoe with min bet.
2.) Spread 1-12 as true count goes positive
3.) Leave when true count hits -1

Ok now here's the senerio. I have played two hands which I have won both and the count is now at my departure point. If I am playing with other players...no big deal, I get up and walk. The dealer deals the next round and the game goes on without me. BUT, when playing alone, If I walk, the game comes to a complete halt. The dealer is standing there with his freshly shuffled shoe, kind of pissed. The pit guy notices this as well. I'm sure the dealer and more importantly pit think it odd for someone to sit down, wait through the suffle and play two hands.

I think Mr Francks suggustion sound reasonable. Problem is when playing the same casinos over and over, you cant keep using the same line.