# Playing indices between AO2 and I18 and qFit data contradicting?

#### gunner82

##### Member
For my first post here I wanted to get some feedback on a snag that I've been running into. I have been counting for only a few months and feel comfortable going further, I have been playing basic omega 2 with the +6 and -6 strategies accurately, so now I feel that I can progress into using some more playing deviations. In BJFB Bryce talks about learning the "fabulous 18" ,which I know is the illustrious 18 and fabulous 4, but when looking at the tables in his book, comparing them with the tables for the same game on casino verite software I'm seeing variations in the indices so I'm not sure which one to go with. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

In BJFB the I18 values are as follows:

Insurance= take at +6 or greater
16 v 9 = stand at +7 or greater
16 v 10 =stand at 0 or greater
15 v 10 = stand at +6 or greater
13 v 2 = stand at -1 or greater (hit at -2, -3 etc)
13 v 3 =stand at -3 or greater (hit at -4 -5 etc)
12 v 2 =stand at +5 or greater
12 v 3 = stand at +2 or greater
12 v 4 =stand at 0 or greater
12 v 5 =stand at -2 or great (hit at -3 -4 etc)
12 v 6 = stand at -2 or greater (-5 for H17 games)
11 v A =double at +2 or greater
10 v 10 = double at +9 or greater
10 v A =double at +8 or greater
9 v 2 =double at 0 or greater
9 v 7 =double at 7 or greater
10,10 v 5 =split at +9 or greater (for when DAS is permitted)
10,10 v 6 =split at + 8 or greater (for when DAS is permitted)

on casino verite software though the values change slightly, according to them the I18 for multi deck H17 DAS permitted the table legend states "hit < value" so hit if the value is greater than (more positive) the number shown correct?

Insurance= same
16 v 9 = shows always hit
16 v 10 = hit at +6 or greater stand at less then +6
15 v 10 = hit at +6 or greater stand at less then +6
13 v 2 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4 , -3 -2 etc)
13 v 3 = hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 ,-2 etc)
12 v 2 = hit at +6 or greater (stand at +5, +4, +3 etc)
12 v 3 = hit at +6 or greater (stand at +5 +3 etc)
12 v 4 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 etc)
12 v 5 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 etc)
12 v 6 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 etc)

For doubling the legend says "DD > = value" so I'm assuming that means, double down if the count is less than (more negative) the value shown?
11 v A = double at -5 or greater (hit at -4, -3, etc)
10 v 10 = says never double
10 v A = says never double
9 v 2 = double at -5 (hit at -4, -3 etc)
9 v 7 = double at +6
10,10 v 5 = says never split 10s
10,10 v 6=says never split 10s

I'm sure I'm reading the table wrong but I wanted clarification, to me it would make more sense to stand 16 v 10 if the true count was +6 or greater, so I'm guessing I just read the table wrong and I should be standing then instead of hitting like the table seems to read to me.

so even if that were the case if I read the table wrong and I do in fact stand 16 v 10 at a t.c. of +6 or greater, in BJFB it says stand at t.c. of 0 or greater, so which one am I supposed to go off of? The two sources seem to give different answers and I don't know which one to learn. Any help would be appreciated, as a new card counter this stuff is still foreign to me a little bit so I want to make sure I'm learning the right way so I don't make a costly error.

#### dogman_1234

##### Active Member
The index values for BJFB for AOII seems correct.

Most likely, you set your sim parameters incorrectly and has given absolute erroneous data that does not fit. Case in point: 16 V T shows H <= 6; S. This seems *WAY* off, considering that Hard 16 v T is a "literal coin-toss" in terms of expectation between hitting and standing, where hitting is preferred due to having a greater return than standing.

I know that for HOII (the system I learned) that the index is around 0 for 16 v T. That is: H <= 0; S. I imagine the same goes for High Low.

Again, most likely you screwed-up your sim settings and that explains why you are getting bad index data. Consider finding out where you went wrong.

#### gunner82

##### Member
dogman_1234 said:
The index values for BJFB for AOII seems correct.

Most likely, you set your sim parameters incorrectly and has given absolute erroneous data that does not fit. Case in point: 16 V T shows H <= 6; S. This seems *WAY* off, considering that Hard 16 v T is a "literal coin-toss" in terms of expectation between hitting and standing, where hitting is preferred due to having a greater return than standing.

I know that for HOII (the system I learned) that the index is around 0 for 16 v T. That is: H <= 0; S. I imagine the same goes for High Low.

Again, most likely you screwed-up your sim settings and that explains why you are getting bad index data. Consider finding out where you went wrong.
I will re run the sim and make sure my parameters are correct. As far as the AO2 strategy goes i'm confused on the negative counts, like on 13 v 2 and 13 v 3 indices, when it says -1 and -3 ,respectively, am i correct in thinking that if the count is greater then -1 and -3 (like 0, or +1 +2 etc) that I would stand and if the count were less (-4, -6 etc) i would hit?

#### dogman_1234

##### Active Member
I don't have BJFB.

What I am going to assume is that for the leftmost/rightmost digit, it is dependent on whether you are playing a S17 or H17 game. That is, for 13 V 2: H <= -1; S {For S17}; H <= -3; S {For H17}.

Again, this is an assumption on my part. You will have to re-read BJFB to get a better ideal what Bryce is saying on the manner.

As for whether your given index is the correct action: if the system suggests hitting 13 v 2 at -1(-3), you would generally hit at that number or less (-2, -3, ... , -n). For things like 16 vs T, I would hit at 0 at the beggining of the shoe; stand on all other positive numbers, even some numbers where a whole number is not realized (like you have a RC of 2 at 5 deck mark of a 6 deck shoe, making a TC of 0.4. Here, I would stand.)

#### BJgenius007

##### Well-Known Member
gunner82 said:
For my first post here I wanted to get some feedback on a snag that I've been running into. I have been counting for only a few months and feel comfortable going further, I have been playing basic omega 2 with the +6 and -6 strategies accurately, so now I feel that I can progress into using some more playing deviations. In BJFB Bryce talks about learning the "fabulous 18" ,which I know is the illustrious 18 and fabulous 4, but when looking at the tables in his book, comparing them with the tables for the same game on casino verite software I'm seeing variations in the indices so I'm not sure which one to go with. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

In BJFB the I18 values are as follows:

Insurance= take at +6 or greater
16 v 9 = stand at +7 or greater
16 v 10 =stand at 0 or greater
15 v 10 = stand at +6 or greater
13 v 2 = stand at -1 or greater (hit at -2, -3 etc)
13 v 3 =stand at -3 or greater (hit at -4 -5 etc)
12 v 2 =stand at +5 or greater
12 v 3 = stand at +2 or greater
12 v 4 =stand at 0 or greater
12 v 5 =stand at -2 or great (hit at -3 -4 etc)
12 v 6 = stand at -2 or greater (-5 for H17 games)
11 v A =double at +2 or greater
10 v 10 = double at +9 or greater
10 v A =double at +8 or greater
9 v 2 =double at 0 or greater
9 v 7 =double at 7 or greater
10,10 v 5 =split at +9 or greater (for when DAS is permitted)
10,10 v 6 =split at + 8 or greater (for when DAS is permitted)

on casino verite software though the values change slightly, according to them the I18 for multi deck H17 DAS permitted the table legend states "hit < value" so hit if the value is greater than (more positive) the number shown correct?

Insurance= same
16 v 9 = shows always hit
16 v 10 = hit at +6 or greater stand at less then +6
15 v 10 = hit at +6 or greater stand at less then +6
13 v 2 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4 , -3 -2 etc)
13 v 3 = hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 ,-2 etc)
12 v 2 = hit at +6 or greater (stand at +5, +4, +3 etc)
12 v 3 = hit at +6 or greater (stand at +5 +3 etc)
12 v 4 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 etc)
12 v 5 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 etc)
12 v 6 =hit at -5 or less (stand at -4, -3 etc)

For doubling the legend says "DD > = value" so I'm assuming that means, double down if the count is less than (more negative) the value shown?
11 v A = double at -5 or greater (hit at -4, -3, etc)
10 v 10 = says never double
10 v A = says never double
9 v 2 = double at -5 (hit at -4, -3 etc)
9 v 7 = double at +6
10,10 v 5 = says never split 10s
10,10 v 6=says never split 10s

I'm sure I'm reading the table wrong but I wanted clarification, to me it would make more sense to stand 16 v 10 if the true count was +6 or greater, so I'm guessing I just read the table wrong and I should be standing then instead of hitting like the table seems to read to me.

so even if that were the case if I read the table wrong and I do in fact stand 16 v 10 at a t.c. of +6 or greater, in BJFB it says stand at t.c. of 0 or greater, so which one am I supposed to go off of? The two sources seem to give different answers and I don't know which one to learn. Any help would be appreciated, as a new card counter this stuff is still foreign to me a little bit so I want to make sure I'm learning the right way so I don't make a costly error.
The indexes you quoted from BJ For Blood are all correct. That is what you should use. The other indexes from Verite software are way off. I think you either set parameters wrong or have chosen indexes for other system, not AO2.

#### gunner82

##### Member
After going back through and looking at my parameters i had casino verite set to basic omega 2 not the advanced omega 2 so once i switched it to the right system the numbers lined up right. So simple mistake but thanks for the replies.

Edit:
My next question would be, in BJFB bryce says the progression of learning the omega 2 system is, mastering basic strategy, then mastering +6 strategy, then mastering -6 strategy, then the I18, then the fab 4 and finally the rest of the playing deviations in the AOII. But to me im thinking it makes more sense to go straight from basic strategy to the I18 because the +6 strategy is only about 5 or 6 changes that are usually just standing more and doubling on a few and honestly probably pretty rare to have a tc of +6. While the -6 strategy has a lot more devistions on it. To me i don't think that it would be worthwhile to spend the time to master -6 when i could use that time mastering the I18, because if the true count is -6 i won't be at that table anymore. What do you guys think? Stay the course or go from basic strategy to the I18?

Last edited:

#### DSchles

##### Well-Known Member
gunner82 said:
After going back through and looking at my parameters i had casino verite set to basic omega 2 not the advanced omega 2 so once i switched it to the right system the numbers lined up right. So simple mistake but thanks for the replies.

Edit:
My next question would be, in BJFB bryce says the progression of learning the omega 2 system is, mastering basic strategy, then mastering +6 strategy, then mastering -6 strategy, then the I18, then the fab 4 and finally the rest of the playing deviations in the AOII. But to me im thinking it makes more sense to go straight from basic strategy to the I18 because the +6 strategy is only about 5 or 6 changes that are usually just standing more and doubling on a few and honestly probably pretty rare to have a tc of +6. While the -6 strategy has a lot more devistions on it. To me i don't think that it would be worthwhile to spend the time to master -6 when i could use that time mastering the I18, because if the true count is -6 i won't be at that table anymore. What do you guys think? Stay the course or go from basic strategy to the I18?

Don

#### gunner82

##### Member
Thanks for the reply don, coming from the man himself I'll take your advice and master your system first then work on the other strategies as time goes on. Thank you for your time.

#### BJgenius007

##### Well-Known Member
gunner82 said:
After going back through and looking at my parameters i had casino verite set to basic omega 2 not the advanced omega 2 so once i switched it to the right system the numbers lined up right. So simple mistake but thanks for the replies.

Edit:
My next question would be, in BJFB bryce says the progression of learning the omega 2 system is, mastering basic strategy, then mastering +6 strategy, then mastering -6 strategy, then the I18, then the fab 4 and finally the rest of the playing deviations in the AOII. But to me im thinking it makes more sense to go straight from basic strategy to the I18 because the +6 strategy is only about 5 or 6 changes that are usually just standing more and doubling on a few and honestly probably pretty rare to have a tc of +6. While the -6 strategy has a lot more devistions on it. To me i don't think that it would be worthwhile to spend the time to master -6 when i could use that time mastering the I18, because if the true count is -6 i won't be at that table anymore. What do you guys think? Stay the course or go from basic strategy to the I18?
Go straight from Basic Strategy to I18 indexes. Basic Omega (+6 /-6) is an unnecessary stop.