Playing Rated

[SoftSeventeen]

I've seen in these forums, that "Playing rated" is considered a mistake/error/bad judgement. I am inclined to ask why?
In my experience, I've been offered, and accepted, many comps from plenty of places. Win or lose, I stay free, eat & drink free, and, often, grab a lot of expensive concert/show tickets...all on the house's dime.
I'll make it be known that I generally win, albeit, I accept smaller wins than most experienced players are willing to walk with. To that fact, I will also cut my losses at a lower tier than most players.
I tend to view the comps as part of my "winnings", and view the player's card as a necessary evil, in order to receive my free gifts.
I've been backed off under 20 times, in twenty-three years, and I've never been barred from an establishment.
I keep meticulous records of my gaming earnings, and I can honestly say that I'm well over six figures in the black, as far as win/loss.
So, again, talk me into believing that rating is such a negative. I can't understand why that's even an issue...

 

[Ryemo]

This is pretty simple... if you play rated, then you willingly give up your name. If you get identified as an AP, then your name will land into a database eventually (i.e. OSN, Biometrica). Once that happens, rated play will trigger back offs much faster. I’ve been backed off several times and addressed by my real name, despite playing unrated. This makes things a lot more difficult.

I played rated a lot when I first started and I got blasted all over the databases. Being databased hasn’t stopped me from playing, but it sure can slow you down and add a lot additional frustration. Eventually when your stakes reach a certain point, you’ll realize that the free cheese burger and free hotel room isn’t worth getting backed off immediately.

 

[JohnCrover]

This is pretty simple... if you play rated, then you willingly give up your name. If you get identified as an AP, then your name will land into a database eventually (i.e. OSN, Biometrica). Once that happens, rated play will trigger back offs much faster. I’ve been backed off several times and addressed by my real name, despite playing unrated. This makes things a lot more difficult.

I played rated a lot when I first started and I got blasted all over the databases. Being databased hasn’t stopped me from playing, but it sure can slow you down and add a lot additional frustration. Eventually when your stakes reach a certain point, you’ll realize that the free cheese burger and free hotel room isn’t worth getting backed off immediately.

The problem for us lower rated players is that the free cheese burgers and hotel rooms go a very long way because those things become significant when you're making 10 dollars an hour, especially the hotel rooms. When you have 20 thousand hands of break even, let's call it 100 hands an hour for a total of 200 hours, those comps can be the difference between significant profit and loss in relation to your bank roll.
However, I do agree with you about playing rated. I have played predominantly rated for the entirety of my blackjack adventure and thus far I have regretted it. I have been backed off from one place just because I was winning too much and how did they know that? Well, they just took a look at the statistics on my player card. When someone is up 2 thousand over the course of 10 thousand hands or whatever and their theoretical value is -$1,000 then it's going to get some attention. Playing under a fake alias is probably the best option.

 

[Hell'nBack]

The problem is that refusing a player card can actually generate more heat.

 

[JJP]

There's one place in particular I play more than the others. I've done OK there; not great but at least ahead. My wife has been there two times to play slots. Guess who gets the deals in the mail? It's not me. Going forward, I'm not gonna use a card there, because it's not worth it.

 

[Ryemo]

The problem is that refusing a player card can actually generate more heat.

Have you ever been backed off almost immediately just for turning in a player’s card? I have. More than a few times. Sometimes within minutes of sitting down.

A lot of people say that playing with no card attracts more heat. I’ll agree that there’s some truth to that, but a lot of times that “heat” is imaginary. I’d rather play 3 or 4 hrs while the pit is sweating me, vs 45 min and getting backed off right after surveillance finds me in OSN.

 

[Gosha]

I am curious for those who play rated how do you avoid heat? If you're going to play BJ rated would it be beneficial to mix it up and play on a CSM table for like $40-100 once in awhile for cover purposes in a casino that offers both (shoe and CSM)...? Instead of cover plays why not a cover buy in? Pit pulls up your profile they would see you sometimes play a game that cannot possibly be beaten by counting it. Has anyone who's played rated ever done this for longevity purposes?

 

[21forme]

I am curious for those who play rated how do you avoid heat?

The only way to avoid heat is play short sessions.

 

[JohnCrover]

Card counters only play Blackjack, in fact, if a dealer suspects you're counting cards (which they often time don't care because security isn't their job in most places) they will ask you if " you play any games other than blackjack," in my very limited experience.

 

[SoftSeventeen]

Card counters only play Blackjack, in fact, if a dealer suspects you're counting cards (which they often time don't care because security isn't their job in most places) they will ask you if " you play any games other than blackjack," in my very limited experience.

True.
I've also been at tables, and been questioned by others players, "Do you count cards?".
Counters act like it's not obvious what's going on. We pretend we're not counting, and the casino pretends to not notice/care that we are....until the stakes warrant a fly-by.
I don't care at all if they know. Until they deem it necessary to stop me, I'm making money; and that's why we all play, right?
Blackjack isn't my job, or "career", it's a part-time second income, until the house "fires me".
I can live with that.

 

[JohnCrover]

Yeah, be careful though because it's more fun at a blackjack table than it is sitting at your house on your hands. I also don't really know what you mean by the "warrants warranting a fly-by." If that means you only get backed off if you play large enough that's just wrong, you will get backed off no matter the stakes if you're counting.
If someone asked me if I was counting cards at a table that would be pretty uncomfortable. I think I would just leave.

 

[SoftSeventeen]

Yeah, be careful though because it's more fun at a blackjack table than it is sitting at your house on your hands. I also don't really know what you mean by the "warrants warranting a fly-by." If that means you only get backed off if you play large enough that's just wrong, you will get backed off no matter the stakes if you're counting.
If someone asked me if I was counting cards at a table that would be pretty uncomfortable. I think I would just leave.

Sitting at home, would include the company of my wife, soooooo....that would be just fine.
I've been backed off 15 times in 23 years, never barred. I'm ok with that.
I'm up 150K, or so...so, again, I'm ok with that.
I just think too many players play paranoid. It' ridiculous.
I once got backed off, and went the bar for a drink. Within 20 minutes, the casino manager and I were sharing beers (that I bought), and laughing out loud, as we shared casino stories.
He told me to come and play again...reminded me that it's his job to catch me, and that it's my job to try and not get caught.
We are friends to this day.
Have fun. Play well. Win.
There's my advice.

 

[joe808]

I play often at a casino and known as 'VIP'. I befriended most of the dealers and pit bosses. I don't sit there quietly with a water bottle staring at the cards all the time. I talk about sports (betting) life and so on. I've never been backed off.

 

[JJP]

People often say, "once you give your identity away, you can never get it back." Yes, I get it. But if one is a newer player, they aren't worried about protecting their identity yet; they are just trying to improve and become a winning player. There may very well come a time to stop using a card, but for many starting out, the comps are needed.

 

[Ryemo]

People often say, "once you give your identity away, you can never get it back." Yes, I get it. But if one is a newer player, they aren't worried about protecting their identity yet; they are just trying to improve and become a winning player. There may very well come a time to stop using a card, but for many starting out, the comps are needed.

What would the comps be needed for? Are these new players living off of their blackjack earnings?

Here’s what many new players don’t understand; many think that they can stop playing rated after getting heated up in the databases. While that’s true, you have no idea how many times I’ve been backed off by name or had my OSN or Biometrica profile updated, despite the fact that I never played rated or gave up my ID. My point is that I still feel the affects of being databased, even though I almost never play rated anymore.

I think one could make the argument that a full time player is going to be much more in need of comps in order to help minimize trip expenses, vs a new player who doesn’t depend on AP for their income. Why risk getting databased when the comps you receive for red-chip play is practically worthless?

 

[Hell'nBack]

I am curious for those who play rated how do you avoid heat? If you're going to play BJ rated would it be beneficial to mix it up and play on a CSM table for like $40-100 once in awhile for cover purposes in a casino that offers both (shoe and CSM)...? Instead of cover plays why not a cover buy in? Pit pulls up your profile they would see you sometimes play a game that cannot possibly be beaten by counting it. Has anyone who's played rated ever done this for longevity purposes?

I play several non-blackjack games for the purpose of cover; however, the greatest asset a player can possess is the ability to convince the casino that your counting skills are sub-standard and that you are not a serious threat that requires counter-measuring. Keep 'em guessing because as soon as they draw a clear picture, you are kaput.

 

[xengrifter]

The problem is that refusing a player card can actually generate more heat.

Naaah! It just takes you out of your comfort zone.

 

[KewlJ]

Keep 'em guessing because as soon as they draw a clear picture, you are kaput.

This has NOT been my experience, at least here in Vegas. Even having 30ish casinos in my playing rotation and spreading my play around multiple shifts, I still see the same faces, both pit and dealers too often. I know at least some of them have me figured out.... probably more than I think or hope. But I receive minimal heat and backoffs. Average about 4-6 a year and the last couple years have been below that, except for one bad two week period a couple years ago, when "heat" followed me back to Vegas from another area of the country.

For the most part I have found these people are just working Joe's. They want to get through their day and get home, with as little hassle as possible, just like any other working stiff. Except for a few gung-ho type (usually younger) looking to make a name for themselves, most pit folks, want to back you off or bar you as a last resort. So the trick is to not a create a situation that they have to answer for. THAT is the problem! You sit there for long period of time counting and score a big win, that someone above them notices and then the pit person has heat. He or she has to answer why they let a counter play and win like that?

So you don't create that situation for them and most won't hassle you, even if they kind of recognize you and what you are up to. Playing short sessions is the key. Not only does it limit information available from a single sitting (session), but for the most part it will keep wins smaller. Less of those really big wins that they have to answer for.

There are 3 keys. Already discussed short sessions. Second is try to identify the comfort level of each casino and even more individually each shift (day and time) within the casino. There is a level that you can play within there tolerance or comfort level....at least for a short time. Thresholds are different for different casinos, days and shifts, but $100 bets for low limit players and $500 wagers for mid-level players are generally "key" thresholds.

Lastly don't be super obvious. I don't remember who offered this advice to me (possible bigplayer), but someone recommended not spreading to more than two color chips. Spreading 3 colors is VERY obvious. Card counter tattoo on forehead obvious. This means a red chip player, playing a minimum wager of $5 or $10 should spread to no more than $75 or $80. That is spreading 2 colors, red to green. You go to $100 and you are spreading 3 colors.

A green chip players playing $25 minimum, should spread to $300 or $400. That is green to black...2 colors. You spread to $500 and you have spread 3 colors (even if they continue to pay you in black). It is advice that has worked for me.

 

[JJP]

What would the comps be needed for? Are these new players living off of their blackjack earnings?

Here’s what many new players don’t understand; many think that they can stop playing rated after getting heated up in the databases. While that’s true, you have no idea how many times I’ve been backed off by name or had my OSN or Biometrica profile updated, despite the fact that I never played rated or gave up my ID. My point is that I still feel the affects of being databased, even though I almost never play rated anymore.

I think one could make the argument that a full time player is going to be much more in need of comps in order to help minimize trip expenses, vs a new player who doesn’t depend on AP for their income. Why risk getting databased when the comps you receive for red-chip play is practically worthless?

I don't doubt you are right. I guess its just until one is at a level where they could well get backed off, they don't know if they will get to that level. I very well might do that, but I don't have a crystal ball. I haven't yet gotten to betting black chips, but I hope to in near future. Maybe I will ditch the card(s) in the near future.

 

[Red Green]

This has NOT been my experience, at least here in Vegas. Even having 30ish casinos in my playing rotation and spreading my play around multiple shifts, I still see the same faces, both pit and dealers too often. I know at least some of them have me figured out.... probably more than I think or hope. But I receive minimal heat and backoffs. Average about 4-6 a year and the last couple years have been below that, except for one bad two week period a couple years ago, when "heat" followed me back to Vegas from another area of the country.

For the most part I have found these people are just working Joe's. They want to get through their day and get home, with as little hassle as possible, just like any other working stiff. Except for a few gung-ho type (usually younger) looking to make a name for themselves, most pit folks, want to back you off or bar you as a last resort. So the trick is to not a create a situation that they have to answer for. THAT is the problem! You sit there for long period of time counting and score a big win, that someone above them notices and then the pit person has heat. He or she has to answer why they let a counter play and win like that?

So you don't create that situation for them and most won't hassle you, even if they kind of recognize you and what you are up to. Playing short sessions is the key. Not only does it limit information available from a single sitting (session), but for the most part it will keep wins smaller. Less of those really big wins that they have to answer for.

There are 3 keys. Already discussed short sessions. Second is try to identify the comfort level of each casino and even more individually each shift (day and time) within the casino. There is a level that you can play within there tolerance or comfort level....at least for a short time. Thresholds are different for different casinos, days and shifts, but $100 bets for low limit players and $500 wagers for mid-level players are generally "key" thresholds.

Lastly don't be super obvious. I don't remember who offered this advice to me (possible bigplayer), but someone recommended not spreading to more than two color chips. Spreading 3 colors is VERY obvious. Card counter tattoo on forehead obvious. This means a red chip player, playing a minimum wager of $5 or $10 should spread to no more than $75 or $80. That is spreading 2 colors, red to green. You go to $100 and you are spreading 3 colors.

A green chip players playing $25 minimum, should spread to $300 or $400. That is green to black...2 colors. You spread to $500 and you have spread 3 colors (even if they continue to pay you in black). It is advice that has worked for me.

Excellent advice.