Playing with high ROR

[ohbehave]

Would it be extremely foolish to play with a ROR of almost 10% on a bankroll of 20k?

Up to now I've been only building a bankroll and don't consider myself as having an adequate br. But I have about 20k that I'm considering using for my br so I can step up my game.

Have any of you serious players played with a high ROR. How deep into your br have you had to go? How long to recover from any deep downturns. Any words of advice, experiences to share would be appreciated.

 

[callipygian]

Would it be extremely foolish to play with a ROR of almost 10% on a bankroll of 20k?

Is this something you found in your coat pocket, or your grandfather's life savings which was passed on to you as his dying wish?

Ultimately, "How much is $20,000 worth to you?" is the question which will decide what an acceptable ROR is for you.

I'm a recreational player who plays with a much higher than 10% ROR. That being said, my bankroll is worth about 8 days' income for me. If I were carrying my entire bankroll and got mugged, my first thought would be, "Oh, crap, my credit cards!" - because the average amount of unused credit I have available is roughly 20x my bankroll.

People with large bankrolls and/or play for a living have, obviously a vastly different opinion on ROR.

So how large is your bankroll - not in terms of dollars, but in terms of what it's worth to you?

 

[ohbehave]

I'm not comfortable losing 20 grand no matter where it came from. I see the bankroll as something to absorb any serious downturns but don't want to put it at extreme risk of a complete loss. I understand downturns are inevitable. So I'm looking for real world experiences to help me decide what kind of risk to take.

 

[callipygian]

I'm not comfortable losing 20 grand no matter where it came from.

You'll definitely want to play with a lower ROR, then. I can't help you any more, sorry.

 

[Kasi]

I'm not comfortable losing 20 grand no matter where it came from. I see the bankroll as something to absorb any serious downturns but don't want to put it at extreme risk of a complete loss. I understand downturns are inevitable.

Higher lifetime risk also will create a higher chance of losing 50% of your roll at some point alot higher than a lower risk lifetime roll will.

Sacrifice EV for lower lifetime risk. Play at full-Kelly and have a 50% chance of losing half your roll at some point. Play at .3 Kelly and it's less than 2%.

Less swings in roll with lower risk.

Ironically, perhaps, the best bet you maybe ever could make is one with a guaranteed and immediate 100% ROR.

Make that losing $100 bet. Buy a sim.

 

[moo321]

Would it be extremely foolish to play with a ROR of almost 10% on a bankroll of 20k?

Up to now I've been only building a bankroll and don't consider myself as having an adequate br. But I have about 20k that I'm considering using for my br so I can step up my game.

Have any of you serious players played with a high ROR. How deep into your br have you had to go? How long to recover from any deep downturns. Any words of advice, experiences to share would be appreciated.

Do you have a job? Are you in school? Do you have a retirement plan? Do you have a degree or marketable skills if you go broke?

All things to consider.

 

[EasyRhino]

When my BR was $500, my ROR was probably 75% or so. At $5000, it was probably 15%. At $30000, more like 8%.

The specific numbers don't really mean anything, but the point is how much the losses are going to hurt you. The first consideration is financial (don't gamble the mortgage payment), and the second is psychological (if losing $20k would simply pose an unacceptable emotional burden).

If you're risk averse enough, you might not even want to commit all of the money to the bankroll, the idea being that ANY ROR is too high.

 

[Unshake]

When my BR was $500, my ROR was probably 75% or so. At $5000, it was probably 15%. At $30000, more like 8%.

The specific numbers don't really mean anything, but the point is how much the losses are going to hurt you. The first consideration is financial (don't gamble the mortgage payment), and the second is psychological (if losing $20k would simply pose an unacceptable emotional burden).

If you're risk averse enough, you might not even want to commit all of the money to the bankroll, the idea being that ANY ROR is too high.

I agree, especially if you are new to counting and don't know what to expect. Maybe find a game you can play with a 10K roll and 5% or so ROR. Once you feel comfortable with the swings (or more importantly your skills), you can always change games/limits/spreads etc...

 

[Kasi]

When my BR was $500, my ROR was probably 75% or so. At $5000, it was probably 15%. At $30000, more like 8%.

The specific numbers don't really mean anything, but the point is how much the losses are going to hurt you.

The numbers mean a little in the fact that if you played the same game with the $500 at a 75% ROR, you could have been playing that same game with only $4000 and with a 10% ROR. So obviously you were choosing to subject your money to a higher risk than that even with a $5K roll.

 

[Kasi]

I agree, especially if you are new to counting and don't know what to expect...

Then all you are really doing is adding and subtracting 1. Maybe even dividing once in a while. Congrats.

Since you can choose to never play a hand without knowing to expect from it $-wise and "swing"-wise and you can also choose to never play a hand without testing your counting skills, your BS skills, your index skills if you want until you have complete confidence in them, why would you ever choose otherwise?

Whatever lol. Nothing at you - substitute "one" for "you".

 

[TheJacob]

Nothing wrong with "taking a shot".

Just be reasonably rolled and have a stoploss.
Whether they be poker players, card counters, or any other type of pro gambler you will find few playing the highest limits who got their by grinding their way up with a constant ROR less than 1%.

Most took a shot at some point. Most of them probably took a few and failed the first time too...built back up and did it again.

 

[FLASH1296]

We call that a "Hail Mary Bankroll."

 

[TheJacob]

We call that a "Hail Mary Bankroll."

Regardless of the circumstances and your RoR the ability to move down is important in any type of advantage play.

 

[celadore]

Regardless of the circumstances and your RoR the ability to move down is important in any type of advantage play.

Too true. With a $20,000 bankroll, if I got the **** kicked out of me on the tables and went down to $10,000, I would be halving my unit bet to adjust to my new bankroll. Then halving again at $5k, and again at $2.5k. This greatly reduces your RoR. (I'd also be crying the entire time).

But $20k is a huge amount to start with, it all depends on how comfortable you are with losing it all. There's no gaurantee that just because your counting that you're going to win. Consider what would happen if you did lose all $20k. Is it going to reduce your standard of living? Can you raise another $20k and start again?

Also, as a new counter, you're bound to make mistakes as you learn to adapt to the environment. Why not start with $5k and work your bankroll up? It all depends on what you're comfortable with putting on the line.