Please critique my play

#21
Systematic errors

Are you flooring your TC estimates? Do you know how to do the fractional math to determine TC in SD games? Are you using risk averse indices? It would seem to me you must have a systematic problem causing you to bet or play incorrectly.

Flooring TC estimates is always rounding toward negative infinity. 3.9 would be 3. and -2.1 would be -3. This makes sure your plays and bets are not made incorrect by rounding in the TC conversion. The mistake of not flooring your conversion would have you over betting. That would cost you money. If there are 23 cards played that would be (52 - 23)/52 = .558 decks left. Obviously you are not going to be able to TC = RC/.558 so you round so your estimation is less than the actual amount. 29/52 must be rounded to a larger fraction that you can divide with for when RC is positive and the other way when RC is negative. The obvious divisor is 3/5. It is slightly high so is better for a positive RC. The important thing is not which way you round your divisor but that your TC estimation error is always on the side of conservative bets. Usually flooring the real number TC estimate to an integer is sufficient. If it has an error in the wrong direction you are over betting and misplaying your hands that are close to the cusp of the decision which costs you money.

Dividing by a fraction is the same as multiplying by its inverse. X/(3/5) = X*5/3.

Indices for doubling and splitting are typically determined by the threshold Double if it increases your EV by 1 cent. You risk twice as much money to win 1 more penny. You are making variance shoot through the roof for not much gain. This results in less profit in the long run because you lost the option of taking another card if you need to hit hurting your per hand advantage. Before you doubled you would win more of the hands while winning or losing less money. When you double if you are likely to want another card due to a particular hand matchup you end up with twice as much money out there with a lousy hand.

My favorite hand to illustrate this is doubling A6 v 2. You double and catch a ten now you are stuck with twice the money out there hoping the dealer will bust with a 2 showing. You always hit soft 17 when not doubling because it is a bad total that is always better to take a safe card to. Only 4 out of 13 cards you can get to your double will change this position. In a positive count this ratio is smaller. The dealer will bust roughly 35% of the time with up card of 2. As the count goes up it is unfavorable to your hand being improved as the cards you need are being used up. The cards the dealer needs most 9,8,7 are those cards you have no information about with most counts. This affect makes the reward of a few pennies in EV to be less than the penalty from lost flexibility and losing double your bet. This ultimately cost you money in the long run and greatly increases variance. A much higher risk averse index is the most profitable. The increase in variance when not using risk averse indices make you much more likely to be down big in the short term!!!!
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#22
Also I don't think you mentioned how your down 300 units. If you were down 300 because of a few really horrible shoes, that would seem more "natural" than steadily being ground down to -300. If the latter is the case, then you might want to re-evaluate your game, and have another AP examine your play in a casino condition.
 

21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#23
The Chaperone said:
Losing 50 max bets in one hour is not very likely. In fact, there's almost no chance he would even put that much in action in an hour at this game (assuming 100 rounds).
Yeah, I wasn't thinking about single deck with a smaller spread. I've lost 300 units in about a shoe and a half before playing 6-deck, spreading 1-20. Still, losing 300 units in 100 hours is very possible. In fact, back in Dec I lost over 1800 units that month. That was over 18 sessions, so if I averaged 5 hours a session that's an average of losing 20 units/hour for slightly less than 100 hours. So from my experience, losing 3 units/hour for 100 hours is certainly very possible.
 
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#26
Maximizing long run profit not per hand EV

If variance is the problem risk averse play should help. Insuring BJ always and 20 when insurance has a slightly disadvantage. Greatly raising non risk averse indices on select soft doubles, doubling 9 v 7 and 10 v T to name a few. Also rather than splitting 44 v 5 or 6 double on very high TC if double after split is allowed (you would never split if it wasnt). Never split 88 v T. Generous use of surrender when offered. These plays and others greatly decrease variance at the expense of EV on that hand which would really help when the variance monster is chasing you down. The result is a steadily increasing bankroll with far fewer and smaller downward slides. In the long run this means more average profit.
 
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21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#28
halibut said:
In your previous post on April 30
(http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=228622&postcount=23)
you said that you were going to practice Hi-Lo I18 indices and now you say that you have been using Zen for 100 hours. Are these statements both true? Sorry if I missed something.
Apparently he/she has been changing counting systems quite a bit:
Amad99 said:
I've been going earlier in the day during the week and I've made friends with a young dealer. I play with her 1 on 1 and one time the count was way low after like 2 hands and I asked her to shuffle the cards and so she smiled, looked to see where her boss was, told me to "sshh" and shuffled them. I kept playing for a couple hours, and she would shuffle anytime I asked. Is this normal?

I went to another table, where another young dealer was, I could tell both were very inexperienced and I asked her to shuffle once and she did.

Anyways, if the dealer will shuffle whenever the count is low I can only play high counts. I'm still playing SD, Double any 2 cards, NDAS, hit S17, no surrender, same as mentioned above. I've been using the Hi-opt 1 count and keeping track of the Aces seperate in my head. I've been using 5 dollar units, with a bet spread of 1-5. count is +2 I bet 10. Count is +4 I bet 20 and so on.... But I keep losing... and losing.. I bet big, I get 20, dealer hits 21. I bet big I get 18, dealer gets 20. And sometimes I bust myself with 13/14/15 when dealer shows 10. last night leaving the casino I cursed counting and swore it didn't work and wanted to quit but... I wanna go back to my lil' asian friend and come out on top. I know it can work and I wanna stick with it. Can anyone help me out? Any suggestions of what I can do? Am I playing wrong, or am I just having expected bad nights? thanks.
I'm not sure, but it seems like switching counting sytems so often could be part of the problem. I would imagine that could get a bit confusing, especially to a newby.
 
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21gunsalute

Well-Known Member
#29
Amad99 said:
I've been going earlier in the day during the week and I've made friends with a young dealer. I play with her 1 on 1 and one time the count was way low after like 2 hands and I asked her to shuffle the cards and so she smiled, looked to see where her boss was, told me to "sshh" and shuffled them. I kept playing for a couple hours, and she would shuffle anytime I asked. Is this normal?

I went to another table, where another young dealer was, I could tell both were very inexperienced and I asked her to shuffle once and she did.

Anyways, if the dealer will shuffle whenever the count is low I can only play high counts. I'm still playing SD, Double any 2 cards, NDAS, hit S17, no surrender, same as mentioned above. I've been using the Hi-opt 1 count and keeping track of the Aces seperate in my head. I've been using 5 dollar units, with a bet spread of 1-5. count is +2 I bet 10. Count is +4 I bet 20 and so on.... But I keep losing... and losing.. I bet big, I get 20, dealer hits 21. I bet big I get 18, dealer gets 20. And sometimes I bust myself with 13/14/15 when dealer shows 10. last night leaving the casino I cursed counting and swore it didn't work and wanted to quit but... I wanna go back to my lil' asian friend and come out on top. I know it can work and I wanna stick with it. Can anyone help me out? Any suggestions of what I can do? Am I playing wrong, or am I just having expected bad nights? thanks.
Okay. If I may take the liberty to combine your 2 posts, it looks as if you've lost about $1500 in 100 hours of play using a $5 base unit. That seems fairly normal to me. Not desireable and certainly frustrating, but not that unlikely IMO. I usually play a $5 base unit and I've lost $1500 or more several times in one session. Now that's for 6 deck shoe games with a higher spread but these games have very favorable rules too.

Variance can be a killer which is why you need a large bankroll. It also helps if you have a helpful friend who's willing to give you a hand when you're tapped out. ;)
 

halibut

Active Member
#30
Perhaps you use counts only for betting purposes and not for playing variation. That explains both the poor result and amazingly rapid learning of counts. Could you confirm that?
 

Amad99

Active Member
#31
tthree said:
Are you flooring your TC estimates? Do you know how to do the fractional math to determine TC in SD games? Are you using risk averse indices? It would seem to me you must have a systematic problem causing you to bet or play incorrectly.

Flooring TC estimates is always rounding toward negative infinity. 3.9 would be 3. and -2.1 would be -3. This makes sure your plays and bets are not made incorrect by rounding in the TC conversion. The mistake of not flooring your conversion would have you over betting. That would cost you money. If there are 23 cards played that would be (52 - 23)/52 = .558 decks left. Obviously you are not going to be able to TC = RC/.558 so you round so your estimation is less than the actual amount. 29/52 must be rounded to a larger fraction that you can divide with for when RC is positive and the other way when RC is negative. The obvious divisor is 3/5. It is slightly high so is better for a positive RC. The important thing is not which way you round your divisor but that your TC estimation error is always on the side of conservative bets. Usually flooring the real number TC estimate to an integer is sufficient. If it has an error in the wrong direction you are over betting and misplaying your hands that are close to the cusp of the decision which costs you money.

Dividing by a fraction is the same as multiplying by its inverse. X/(3/5) = X*5/3.

Indices for doubling and splitting are typically determined by the threshold Double if it increases your EV by 1 cent. You risk twice as much money to win 1 more penny. You are making variance shoot through the roof for not much gain. This results in less profit in the long run because you lost the option of taking another card if you need to hit hurting your per hand advantage. Before you doubled you would win more of the hands while winning or losing less money. When you double if you are likely to want another card due to a particular hand matchup you end up with twice as much money out there with a lousy hand.

My favorite hand to illustrate this is doubling A6 v 2. You double and catch a ten now you are stuck with twice the money out there hoping the dealer will bust with a 2 showing. You always hit soft 17 when not doubling because it is a bad total that is always better to take a safe card to. Only 4 out of 13 cards you can get to your double will change this position. In a positive count this ratio is smaller. The dealer will bust roughly 35% of the time with up card of 2. As the count goes up it is unfavorable to your hand being improved as the cards you need are being used up. The cards the dealer needs most 9,8,7 are those cards you have no information about with most counts. This affect makes the reward of a few pennies in EV to be less than the penalty from lost flexibility and losing double your bet. This ultimately cost you money in the long run and greatly increases variance. A much higher risk averse index is the most profitable. The increase in variance when not using risk averse indices make you much more likely to be down big in the short term!!!!

Yes I round the TC for betting purposes. Yes I know how to determine TC in SD games, with Zen count it is different tho, because you must times the denominator by 4. So if RC=4 after first hand, 4/4= TC1. if RC=8 after half the deck, 8/2=TC4. And yes I always round bets down, if RC=7 and half the deck is gone, 7/2=TC3.5, i'm bump it down to 3. I've been spreading units from 1-6 based like this...

TC <0-1... 1 unit
TC 2.......2 units
TC 3.......3 units
TC 4........4 units
TC 5.......5 units
TC 6+......6 units

I know that I am counting correctly, I don't think it's an issue.. I can count down a deck perfectly without error several times in a row, 20 seconds each time.

I do not know what risk averse indices are, if you could please explain? (Unless that's what you just did)

I feel like whenever I have 4-6 unit bet out, I lose or push. I've never hit a blackjack with max bet out that I can recall. All too often I have max bet, and get stuck with 13 v 10 or push with paint 20 and dealer's painted 20. Dealer gets many blackjacks. TC will be +14 and I'll take insurance and be wrong.
 

Amad99

Active Member
#32
Gamblor said:
Also I don't think you mentioned how your down 300 units. If you were down 300 because of a few really horrible shoes, that would seem more "natural" than steadily being ground down to -300. If the latter is the case, then you might want to re-evaluate your game, and have another AP examine your play in a casino condition.
I've consistently lost about 20 - 40 units each session. There were a couple sessions where I only lost about 5 units. Biggest win was 20 units, biggest loss was about 45.
 

Amad99

Active Member
#33
halibut said:
In your previous post on April 30
(http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=228622&postcount=23)
you said that you were going to practice Hi-Lo I18 indices and now you say that you have been using Zen for 100 hours. Are these statements both true? Sorry if I missed something.
Yes both are true. I was using Hi-opt 1 count but I didn't like the indices and I didn't really understand how to use the ace-side count to my advantage. So I switched to zen and have played with that for 100 hours since. Counting the cards has not been an issue, I count for about 4/5 hours at night while watching sports center, no problem no mistakes. I honestly have considered going to an even more advanced count because I think I could handle it especially with SD, but I don't think that would be necessary because I don't feel like that's my problem.
 

Amad99

Active Member
#34
21gunsalute said:
Apparently he/she has been changing counting systems quite a bit:

I'm not sure, but it seems like switching counting sytems so often could be part of the problem. I would imagine that could get a bit confusing, especially to a newby.
I understand that that could be part of the problem, I am new and just starting to play and I'm trying to find what I like to use. But counting cards has never been difficult for me, I've always found it pretty easy. Even the zen count which is supposed to be a more advanced count level 2, I don't have any problem.

My problem is when I bet big, I lose or push. When I bet small, I win. But this is only in the casino. When practicing with someone as a "dealer" at home it always seems to go my way...... are those BAS^@RDS cheating? :eek:
 
#35
Playing efficiency is where most of advantage lies in SD

Are you using indices for play adjustments with zen? With single deck playing efficiency is very important. There are not as many possible cards as you get penetration. All of some cards may be gone. Deciding the proper way to play your hand based on deck composition is where most of your advantage comes from. The last round of the deck the correct play can have a very lopsided outcome depending on what specific cards are left. Betting correlation becomes less important.
 
#36
SD and side counts

You should keep as many side counts as you can handle. Study the effect of removal of any card for each hand matchup. This is the most important information you can have. Some hands can almost be decided strictly by how many of 1 card are left. Master these skills and your advantage sky rockets. You can pick certain hand matchups that are strongly affected by specific cards. Play these with proper side counts. If you only have to remember for a few hands just get good at an easy system RC and side count aces and sevens and how ever many others you can handle.
 

Amad99

Active Member
#37
tthree said:
You should keep as many side counts as you can handle. Study the effect of removal of any card for each hand matchup. This is the most important information you can have. Some hands can almost be decided strictly by how many of 1 card are left. Master these skills and your advantage sky rockets. You can pick certain hand matchups that are strongly affected by specific cards. Play these with proper side counts. If you only have to remember for a few hands just get good at an easy system RC and side count aces and sevens and how ever many others you can handle.
I have practiced side counts of aces, 7, and 9's when playing alone and practicing, and it is something I can handle.. It's not too bad with only SD... But, how do I change my play according to these counts? That's why I dropped the side count of Aces because I don't know what to do with it....
 
#38
Get THE THEORY OF BLACKJACK

Get a copy of THE THEORY OF BLACKJACK by peter griffin. Chapter 6 has tables of all the important hand match ups and the effect of removal of each card for that match up in SD off the top of the deck. I dont use Zen or HILO so that is the best I can do. ZG likes to think he is a HILO expert and Ive heard him talk about side counts a lot maybe he will chime in.
 
#39
halibut said:
Are you quite sure that the pen is 75%? It seems unlikely to me. If it is,
it is quite unlikely that you are down 300 units after 100 hours.
Not THAT unlikely, even for the best.
He needs to cool his jets for a few weeks and discuss his game here. zg
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#40
Amad99 said:
I've consistently lost about 20 - 40 units each session. There were a couple sessions where I only lost about 5 units. Biggest win was 20 units, biggest loss was about 45.
This is pretty much the exact opposite of the pattern of wins/losses you should generally expect to see over an extended period of time - 100 hrs somewhat classifies, so I might suspect something is up at this point, if you find yourself consistently losing small amounts.

Not sure why your max win/loss is so small, might be a function of how long you play. My max win/loss range is about +70 and -60, but I play for a extended periods and lets just say non-standardly, also have a max win cutoff but usually no max loss cut off.

But as others have mentioned, anything can happen due to variance at 100 hrs, which isn't saying much ;)
 
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