Ploppy's getting angry w/ index plays that mess up the "team flow"

[Lonesome Gambler]

Just an afterthought here: I find personally that "lines" used at the table sound like... lines. Even if you think sound natural telling them to civilians ("I felt a streak coming on"), I find that more often than not, you actually tend to sound much more phony than you realize. I've heard many lines used when playing with a partner, and I sat in my seat and cringed. When I asked him about it later, he thought the lines sounded perfectly natural! The problem here is not so much that you'll seem like a phony, but that someone that may have had suspicions about you before (eg. dealer, floorperson) may find that their fears are suddenly seeming more justified by the shady person spouting off lines about the "flow of the cards" that they clearly don't believe to be true.

I haven't run into a problem at the tables yet that couldn't be resolved with a simple shrug and a carefree, "meh." Most people go to the casino for entertainment and gamble because it's a way to kill time, get a small thrill, and have a bit of fun. To civilians, I'm not in the casino to take a game seriously, I'm there to BS and have a good time; carefully explaining why I do certain things (ie. lying) is counterproductive to my image at the tables, at least.

And worse, some lines can kill your game. There are times when I will have made a highly conspicuous move at the table, and dealers and players will frequently comment on my play. The shrug and a terse, meaningless dismissal is all that's needed. If I were to say something along the lines of, "I had a hunch," I could find myself at a table of people wondering why my "hunches" are bizarrely accurate and well-timed.

 

[aslan]

BJGenuius

I have had that almost identicle remark made to me.
The statement made to me was something like "I see that every time you bet big, all the high cards come out, you must know something that other players don't"
- I was caught gaurd w/o an innate reflex answer.
I said something along the lines of "well I like to gamble, and I figure if i always bet the same amount, it's not as fun, I don't get as much of a rush, but also though if i bet alot every hand, then I might lose all my money to fast and I cant gamble for as long as I want to"
- it worked at that time.....

But I was also a poor counter at the time. As in I could not carry on an honest conversation and look someone face to face and "appear" to not really look at the cards on the table more than any other player....
....NOW I can do that, and if that question or statement does arise I think I will use the reply by SouthAP in this thread about the "don't you know it's impossible to count cards in 6 decks" and I will probably add an arrogant twist to it, with something along the lines of "if you knew anything about blackjack, you would of already known that"

I tend to not say anything myself--just act stupid that I didn't know about the "flow" or the "teamwork factor."


I have nothing technically against switching back and forth from one to two hands according to the count, but I caution you, if you are ever under scrutiny or if you suspect they might review the tape on you for future reference, there is no better indicator of card counting than one who switches back and forth in perfect rhythm according to the count, whether it be by changes in betting amounts or by changes in the number of hands played, or both. It's bad enough to always raise one's bet at the exact instant of a move to a plus count, yet alone to do it several times in one shoe. It removes all doubt, if there was any.

When faced with a person commenting that you always seem to know when the big cards are coming out, there are a number of counter-replies:

• Big cards were overdue.
• If you can guess when the big cards are coming, you can beat this game.
• I didn't get big cards for three hands. They had to be coming. It's a simple matter of probability theory.
• My big toe twitches when I am about to have a winning hand.
• They always show up when you least expect them. Just bet against your hunches,
• I can count up to 8 or 9 cards, then I begin to forget them. That's why they have 6-deck I guess.
• I have a system. If a big cards don't come out for three or more times in a row, they are definitely due to come. It's simple mathematics.
• You can't beat this game by betting the same thing each time. If you mix it up you might get lucky. If you don't, you're doomed to lose.
• You can feel it when the cards are running good.
• Playing two hands at the right time will take that ace away from the dealer.
• After you've played this game enough, you just know when the big cards are coming.
• By playing two hands maybe I can stop the dealer from getting all those tens.

 

[Syph]

Hey Aslan,

Personally, I find some of these responses somewhat defensive. As if you are trying to explain away your good fortune. Gamblers aren't like that. Terms like "probability theory", "mathematics", and "counting" simply aren't in their vocabulary. I'd caution anyone from bringing it into the conversation. Words have innate power, regardless of the context:

Aslan failed probability theory.
Aslan skipped mathematics.
Aslan isn't a counter.

See?

Aslan is now associated with probability theory, mathematics, and counting. Whether Aslan is good at them, or not, runs a distant, distant second. Our mind struggles with registering the negative, particularly in simple, crude environments like casinos.

The first time someone, the dealer, mentioned my knack for betting heavy at the appropriate times my response was "It's magic". Not the greatest response. She then proceeded to go on a bit about it, so I asked her for her phone number. This turned out to be somewhat brilliant as she didn't speak much to me after that.

So a fine tactic is to re-interpret any comment towards your play as flirtation. When female bit bosses hover, I hit on them. On occasion this can pose other problems, but not counting related. Anyway, I haven't really bothered to use this with men, but it'd probably work. You don't really want to engage in a discussion regarding your play, you want to end it. As quickly and efficiently as possible, while discouraging any future reference. If someone comments on your good fortune, luck, or whatever, an enthusiastic:

"I'm spanking this bitch like a two dollar whore."

Is quite appropriate. And topical. Follow up comments should center on spanking and/or whores.

Your choice.

I like being a dumb ape. Dumb apes are not defensive when they are winning. Nor do they talk about theory, or attribute their wins to anything other than themselves. They are filled with dumb, obnoxious, arrogance. No one wants to talk to a dumb, obnoxious, arrogant ape ... but they may wish to talk to someone who has a curious probability theory.

Go dumb ape.

(or at least a little atavism)

JMHO,
Syph

(ps Thanks for the kind words, 65D. I'm no one in particular. Just another advantage player finding his way. And on this note, none of this is to say Aslan's advice is incorrect. Only that it doesn't gel with my experiences. However, this field can accommodate a great many personalities. Best wishes to you both on finding your own niche.)

 

[creeping panther]

Syph

Hey Aslan,

Personally, I find some of these responses somewhat defensive. As if you are trying to explain away your good fortune. Gamblers aren't like that. Terms like "probability theory", "mathematics", and "counting" simply aren't in their vocabulary. I'd caution anyone from bringing it into the conversation. Words have innate power, regardless of the context:

Aslan failed probability theory.
Aslan skipped mathematics.
Aslan isn't a counter.

See?

Aslan is now associated with probability theory, mathematics, and counting. Whether Aslan is good at them, or not, runs a distant, distant second. Our mind struggles with registering the negative, particularly in simple, crude environments like casinos.

The first time someone, the dealer, mentioned my knack for betting heavy at the appropriate times my response was "It's magic". Not the greatest response. She then proceeded to go on a bit about it, so I asked her for her phone number. This turned out to be somewhat brilliant as she didn't speak much to me after that.

So a fine tactic is to re-interpret any comment towards your play as flirtation. When female bit bosses hover, I hit on them. On occasion this can pose other problems, but not counting related. Anyway, I haven't really bothered to use this with men, but it'd probably work. You don't really want to engage in a discussion regarding your play, you want to end it. As quickly and efficiently as possible, while discouraging any future reference. If someone comments on your good fortune, luck, or whatever, an enthusiastic:

"I'm spanking this bitch like a two dollar whore."

Is quite appropriate. And topical. Follow up comments should center on spanking and/or whores.

Your choice.

I like being a dumb ape. Dumb apes are not defensive when they are winning. Nor do they talk about theory, or attribute their wins to anything other than themselves. They are filled with dumb, obnoxious, arrogance. No one wants to talk to a dumb, obnoxious, arrogant ape ... but they may wish to talk to someone who has a curious probability theory.

Go dumb ape.

(or at least a little atavism)

JMHO,
Syph

(ps Thanks for the kind words, 65D. I'm no one in particular. Just another advantage player finding his way. And on this note, none of this is to say Aslan's advice is incorrect. Only that it doesn't gel with my experiences. However, this field can accommodate a great many personalities. Best wishes to you both on finding your own niche.)

Another POM,,,I swear it!!

Brilliant...

CP

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...Go dumb ape....

I'll try not talking next time. :joker:

Maybe it would be useful to compile a list of things to absolutely avoid in one's cover act. The following things have either gotten me in trouble or I have witnessed others get into trouble for in a casino:

• Threats, or talk of fighting, weapons, or violence.
• Suggestions of suicide or self-harm.
• Drugs. Pretending to be drunk is one thing, but pretending to be high will win you the attentions of people looking to buy/sell/use drugs, and this can in turn make you a target for LE investigation.
• Aggressive gay male. Considered a threat and a mortal insult to some men, and you'll get stomped.
• Ethnic slurs.
• Profanity stronger than the F-word.
• Suggestions that you stole the money you are playing with. Again, LE.
• Touching anyone, particularly someone from another culture that may interpret your touching differently than you intended it.

Getting backed off for AP is part of the deal, but it would be a shame to get escorted out of a good game because of bad table comportment. A sloppy act of -EV. I've had it happen to me once by accident and almost a second time, when I had to talk my way out of a padded ambulance after a casino employee misinterpreted something I said and thought I was armed and suicidal.

Now as far as playing dumb, that carries its risks too. When we are playing under our real names, some of us have professional achievements and awards, licenses, degrees etc. that a decent records search will turn up and prove that we are far from dumb. As LG mentioned, lines often sound like lines, and you are always safer being honest than getting caught pretending.

So why not instead pretend to be an intelligent person with a gambling and/or alcohol problem? There are plenty of them in casinos, and they are always welcome. It's probably far easier and more convincing for any of us here to pretend to be a drunk or a compulsive gambler than to be dumb.

 

[aslan]

Hey Aslan,


I like being a dumb ape. Dumb apes are not defensive when they are winning. Nor do they talk about theory, or attribute their wins to anything other than themselves. They are filled with dumb, obnoxious, arrogance. No one wants to talk to a dumb, obnoxious, arrogant ape ... but they may wish to talk to someone who has a curious probability theory.

Go dumb ape.

(or at least a little atavism)

JMHO,
Syph

What I do works for me. Maybe it's because I appear to be knowledgeable and intelligent and any attempt to disguise this would be picked up on in a New York second. I am a good actor, but portraying a dumb, obnoxious and arrogant ape is beyond my present capability to pull off effectively. Typecasting is important. If it works for you, go for it. In this case, apparently one size does not fit all.

 

[aslan]

PS--My remarks should not be delivered in a defensive manner, but either jokingly or in an explanatory, but not defensive, manner. I agree that acting like a deer caught in the headlights would be a dead giveaway. You don't really think I would do that, do you?:laugh::whip:

 

[Katweezel]

There's some sound advice on this thread from a platoon of experienced dudes who should know a thing or two... which they do! AM (gently) brought up the ugly topic that I want to mention: racism. I turned up one night at one of my fav hand-shuffled tables (the only one open in the joint that night) only to see about a dozen Vietnamese of both sexes clustered around, watching 3 of their gang, each playing one box, with the other four boxes vacant each round.

(I have a Nam mate and I bear no malice toward any race.) I observed for a while and many of the family or gang are placing bets on one or more of the three boxes. They seem to be winning. While the dealer is shuffling the next shoe, I butt in; asking the pb if I can sit there. He says sure, go ahead. (I didn't ask Hanoi Central!) Massed Silence screams at me!

Now I don't particularly care if someone says naughty, offensive words at me, or even insults my mother; sticks and stones kinda stuff... no big deal, this stuff may be from obvious big dickheads who want to play the Big Man crap. But icy, murderous stares from as many as twelve fired-up individuals, fits in an entirely different category. THE SILENT, MALICIOUS, VOODOO MURDER TREATMENT, it could be called.

The shoe unfolds and I don't need to be fluent in Namese to understand what they are saying about me... I get out my very best, disciplined, hardest shell, to ward off the voodoo evil that is vibrationally dominating my experience. After several losing rounds, a committee meeting elects to shut up shop and move on... which they all do. While filing past, I cop the Evil Eye full blast again.

But now, after a little unsettling, I have my table! I was a little unsettled and much later in the carpark, I was extra cautious.

My point is, I decided to enforce my right to a seat at that particular table which was being dominated by one group. I could have played it differently. From then on, I never disturbed such a group again. I decided that to try to win at this infernal game, you need mental clarity, focus, equilibrium and balance. Those I now protect at all costs, and all else is just detail.

And um, my back had 12 daggers embedded in it; yeah well, that's how it felt. (Exactly the kind of feeling I do not want again!)

 

[aslan]

There's some sound advice on this thread from a platoon of experienced dudes who should know a thing or two... which they do! AM (gently) brought up the ugly topic that I want to mention: racism. I turned up one night at one of my fav hand-shuffled tables (the only one open in the joint that night) only to see about a dozen Vietnamese of both sexes clustered around, watching 3 of their gang, each playing one box, with the other four boxes vacant each round.

(I have a Nam mate and I bear no malice toward any race.) I observed for a while and many of the family or gang are placing bets on one or more of the three boxes. They seem to be winning. While the dealer is shuffling the next shoe, I butt in; asking the pb if I can sit there. He says sure, go ahead. (I didn't ask Hanoi Central!) Massed Silence screams at me!

Now I don't particularly care if someone says naughty, offensive words at me, or even insults my mother; sticks and stones kinda stuff... no big deal, this stuff may be from obvious big dickheads who want to play the Big Man crap. But icy, murderous stares from as many as twelve fired-up individuals, fits in an entirely different category. THE SILENT, MALICIOUS, VOODOO MURDER TREATMENT, it could be called.

The shoe unfolds and I don't need to be fluent in Namese to understand what they are saying about me... I get out my very best, disciplined, hardest shell, to ward off the voodoo evil that is vibrationally dominating my experience. After several losing rounds, a committee meeting elects to shut up shop and move on... which they all do. While filing past, I cop the Evil Eye full blast again.

But now, after a little unsettling, I have my table! I was a little unsettled and much later in the carpark, I was extra cautious.

My point is, I decided to enforce my right to a seat at that particular table which was being dominated by one group. I could have played it differently. From then on, I never disturbed such a group again. I decided that to try to win at this infernal game, you need mental clarity, focus, equilibrium and balance. Those I now protect at all costs, and all else is just detail.

And um, my back had 12 daggers embedded in it; yeah well, that's how it felt. (Exactly the kind of feeling I do not want again!)

Feelings do matter. I gambled with a fellow many years ago. I just had a feeling this guy was nuts and might not be able to take the fact that I was winning his money. His feelings were not even obvious unlike the Vietnamese fellows you described. It was just a very clear sense that I was out of my league and on dangerous ground. From that point on, I did everything I could to let this guy win back his lost money, but he ws such a ploppy that I never did succeed in this. A few months later this same guy murdered another fellow I knew. Actually blew off his head with a sawed-off shotgun at point blank range. I will never forget the victim's father the next day with a bucket of water and a rag cleaning the blood stains and pieces of brain off the carpeted wall behind where his son was shot to death. Do follow your instincts in these matters. When you feel yourself in danger, don't just shrug it off to paranoia. BTW, the shooter was captured and put away for a long time. And he also had a list of people to kill on his person when captured; I heard that my name was on the list. True story.

 

[calleo]

I know the math says that in the longrun, bad play can't mess you up.

But what about on one shoe?

I was playing last night, counting and doing well, when a couple of guys join the table sitting on either side of me (I always play the middle boxes when I'm sitting alone).

And these guys are hitting 17's and 16's against 4s and 5s. And (unbelievably) winning. So count is going up (which is good) but I lose a bunch of stiffs (refusing to hit my 15 on a 5) and dealer is winning too.

Then once the count got up, they are eating all the high cards, busting their 16s and 17s, and allowing the dealer *again* to make his 5's turn into 21's as my incredulous face cards watch on.

I couldn't take it any more. Asked for a new table, got it, and started winning again.

 

[moo321]

I'll try not talking next time. :joker:

Maybe it would be useful to compile a list of things to absolutely avoid in one's cover act. The following things have either gotten me in trouble or I have witnessed others get into trouble for in a casino:

• Threats, or talk of fighting, weapons, or violence.
• Suggestions of suicide or self-harm.
• Drugs. Pretending to be drunk is one thing, but pretending to be high will win you the attentions of people looking to buy/sell/use drugs, and this can in turn make you a target for LE investigation.
• Aggressive gay male. Considered a threat and a mortal insult to some men, and you'll get stomped.
• Ethnic slurs.
• Profanity stronger than the F-word.
• Suggestions that you stole the money you are playing with. Again, LE.
• Touching anyone, particularly someone from another culture that may interpret your touching differently than you intended it.

Getting backed off for AP is part of the deal, but it would be a shame to get escorted out of a good game because of bad table comportment. A sloppy act of -EV. I've had it happen to me once by accident and almost a second time, when I had to talk my way out of a padded ambulance after a casino employee misinterpreted something I said and thought I was armed and suicidal.

Now as far as playing dumb, that carries its risks too. When we are playing under our real names, some of us have professional achievements and awards, licenses, degrees etc. that a decent records search will turn up and prove that we are far from dumb. As LG mentioned, lines often sound like lines, and you are always safer being honest than getting caught pretending.

So why not instead pretend to be an intelligent person with a gambling and/or alcohol problem? There are plenty of them in casinos, and they are always welcome. It's probably far easier and more convincing for any of us here to pretend to be a drunk or a compulsive gambler than to be dumb.

Can you give us some examples of profanity stronger than the f word? I thought that was pretty much the top of the line profanity word...

 

[Sharky]

depends on the audience...if you tell someone to "shut the f#$$ck up" that is not as bad as telling a brother "shut up ni#$#ggr" - which will be perceived as much more insulting by both whites and blacks at the table.

 

[blackchipjim]

Table behavior?

Your behavior at the table is more noted then one would think. Nothing draws more attention to you as a player then abusive language and actions. If you seem aggresive to others the pit alerts security which is something you don't want. If others are wound up because of the style of your plays sometimes it's best to bow out and find more fertile ground. Always play stupid and take a passive approach to nimrods that are on tilt. Your body language tells alot about you and why you there. The least amount of attention you draw to yourself the better.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Can you give us some examples of profanity stronger than the f word? I thought that was pretty much the top of the line profanity word...

No the C-word is much worse, in the US. Also elaborative terms like mofo and rocksucker. The F-word is accepted as an empty modifier, while a technical or descriptive phrase is going to be considered more offensive in colloquial speech. Try an experiment: yell "Oh, F" when you lose a hand, no one will remember. But yell "Oh, sexual intercourse" and people will notice and someone will probably tell you to shut up.

 

[65D]

lol........

 

[aslan]

Your behavior at the table is more noted then one would think. Nothing draws more attention to you as a player then abusive language and actions. If you seem aggresive to others the pit alerts security which is something you don't want. If others are wound up because of the style of your plays sometimes it's best to bow out and find more fertile ground. Always play stupid and take a passive approach to nimrods that are on tilt. Your body language tells alot about you and why you there. The least amount of attention you draw to yourself the better.

You would think. But I had the opposite happen to me. A guy at my table was drawing all kinds of attention to himself with loud insulting language, but the pit must have recognized him for the sucker that he was, so in the end it was me who had to leave the table to get away from this obnoxious s.o.b. The pit later confided in me that he didn't blame me for changing tables, and I'm thinking to myself, "Then, why the hell didn't you move him if you saw that he was irritating everyone." Of course, I already knew the answer. I didn't see what happened, but I assume the way the guy was betting, doubling down on hard eight in negative counts, that he lost his br.

 

[aslan]

No the C-word is much worse, in the US. Also elaborative terms like mofo and rocksucker. The F-word is accepted as an empty modifier, while a technical or descriptive phrase is going to be considered more offensive in colloquial speech. Try an experiment: yell "Oh, F" when you lose a hand, no one will remember. But yell "Oh, sexual intercourse" and people will notice and someone will probably tell you to shut up.

Holy copulation! I never thought of that!

 

[Blue Efficacy]

A tactic I've used before, is if there is a questionable player at the table, I'll tell them, "Just so you know I split face cards once in a while." This will prepare them, and in some cases they will simply leave at that point without making much of a scene.

Prepare them ahead of time, and you won't surprise them as much by splitting 10s (or another "questionable" move) out of nowhere, wrecking the flow and causing them to lose.

I have been lucky wiht my 10 splits lately, as the results have been favorable. Another thing, if it saves the table make sure to rub it in, stopping short of the point where you become annoying. Example, if I split faces, dealer shows 6, and my first card is a 5, should the dealer flip over a total of 16 I will say, "See!! I don't split, dealer gets 21! I knew I had to do it to save the table."

Should you be fortunate enough to be in such a scenario, you are now on the ploppy's side. Again I have found this is very important, if your "odd" play works out, or even if it sacrifices you for the rest of the table (negative index hits) make sure the table knows that you knew what you were doing, using ploppy logic of course.

On a side note, I am sure we've all been there, when we thought about splitting but didn't, because it was too close a call and the dealer gets 21...

Of course if your splitting face cards, or doubing soft 19/20 DOESN'T work, and the table gets screwed as a result of your actions, it becomes much tougher. Do not attempt logic, but again ploppy logic is important. If the table's been doing bad, you have a bit of a pass here. You needed to try something to change it up!

You cannot change the ploppy. However, we are intelligent practicioners of 21. We must adapt, at least superficially, to coexist among the ploppies. Ideally, we would just ignore them, but this is not always practical.

Besides, there are always opportunities if you get on their side. I bought up a plop's DD once when he was almost out of chips. And we won. We did the same thing a few more times. He started insisting that I be his partner for every DD! "I have enough to cover it now, but it's been working so well! we haven't lost one yet!"

If you are a red chipper and a green chipper is at your table, this can be ESPECIALLY valuable. I once was playing next to a guy who would bet 2-3 greens a hand, and would never double for the full amount. I offered to fill in the gap. Not like I needed the help on the fine game I was playing.

Moral of the story: Convince them you are one of them.

 

[creeping panther]

Blue

I dig your postings but please do consider leaving out those specifics about the game, like in the last sentence,,,many reasons to keep that out, please....

CP

 

[Blue Efficacy]

I dig your postings but please do consider leaving out those specifics about the game, like in the last sentence,,,many reasons to keep that out, please....

CP

You're right, I edited it, hopefully less objectionable now.