POLL: What card counting system do you use?

What counting system do you use?

  • Hi-Lo

    Votes: 55 36.2%

  • Hi-Opt I, II

    Votes: 8 5.3%

  • KISS I,II, III

    Votes: 17 11.2%

  • KO

    Votes: 25 16.4%

  • Mentor

    Votes: 3 2.0%

  • Red Seven

    Votes: 13 8.6%

  • Omega II

    Votes: 3 2.0%

  • Zen

    Votes: 15 9.9%

  • Halves

    Votes: 5 3.3%

  • Other

    Votes: 8 5.3%
  • Total voters
    152
I see KO finally took a definitive lead over KISS, though it's still not as far ahead as I would've expected.
 
Based on the current sampling, Renzey has made his mark: his KISS and
Mentor systems are tied with Snyder's ZEN and R7. Kudos, Fred. zg
 
SPX said:
Who's using Mentor?
Click to expand...

No --wasn't me. I'm the other Halves user -- been playing it since '81 and am too old to get away from it. Back then it was believed that if your count is super-structured, it must be a super performer. Subsequently developed sim software showed what a "minimal" truth that is. Halves is still probably the Cadillac of the "no-side-counts" systems, but by such a small margin that I don't think it's worth being learned by a newbie, or graduated to by a journeyman. Zen and Mentor really breathe right down its neck, and both are easier.

For somebody who relishes juggling card tags in their head just for sheer pleasure, the best overall (reasonable) system I've ever simmed is a level 3 that goes like this:

...2.....3.....4.....5......6.....7.....8.....9....10.....A
+2...+2...+3...+3...+3...+2....0....-1....-3....-2

It has a BC of 98.3% and a PE of 61.6% and outperforms Halves by a smidge.
 
Renzey said:
No --wasn't me. I'm the other Halves user -- been playing it since '81 and am too old to get away from it. Back then it was believed that if your count is super-structured, it must be a super performer. Subsequently developed sim software showed what a "minimal" truth that is. Halves is still probably the Cadillac of the "no-side-counts" systems, but by such a small margin that I don't think it's worth being learned by a newbie, or graduated to by a journeyman. Zen and Mentor really breathe right down its neck, and both are easier.

For somebody who relishes juggling card tags in their head just for sheer pleasure, the best overall (reasonable) system I've ever simmed is a level 3 that goes like this:

...2.....3.....4.....5......6.....7.....8.....9....10.....A
+2...+2...+3...+3...+3...+2....0....-1....-3....-2

It has a BC of 98.3% and a PE of 61.6% and outperforms Halves by a smidge.
Click to expand...

I don't know, I tested all these systems together and Mentor won by a fraction of a percent among the single parameter counts. It's also the name of a condom. RPC and BRH-1 were right behind it, followed by Halves, then Zen.

Of course, this is all dependent on game and spread, and even then, it's trivia. They all work, and the differences between them will not become manifest in a human lifetime.
 
Automatic Monkey said:
Of course, this is all dependent on game and spread, and even then, it's trivia. They all work, and the differences between them will not become manifest in a human lifetime.

Mentor is also the name of a condom
Click to expand...

A) Good point!
B) That has a nice ring to it -- the "Condom Count".
 
It would be interesting to see who picked what in the poll? Of course, everyone would have to agree. Either that, or run an open poll.
 
Better Means Better!

The better counts; given situation, would show superior performance in a NO. The mathematics show this but which count to use can be a subjective as well as objective decision.

Wonging and spreading in shoes Halves runs over (cadillac?) many other counts.:joker::whip:

I am very biased:joker::whip:
 
I am surprised more do not use Mentor. It seems like a decent and easy system.

what gives?

opinions?

I am fairly set on HiLo but am open to change if it will help my EV.
 
Mentor is relatively new compared to Zen, with
about the same PE and BC. Zen has a higher IC.
Sims show very little difference in the results of
using either count.

IMHO the symmetry of the Mentor tags is appealing.
Mr. Renzey has done a fine job presenting his work
on Mentor. Counters seeking additional EV should
consider either Mentor or Zen, over level 1 counts.
Additional EV can help offset 6D/8D liabilities, if shoes
mainly comprise your local games. They can, however,
be more difficult to learn and use.

Know your limitations. Simple is sometimes better.

BJinNJ :cool:
 
BJinNJ said:
Mentor is relatively new compared to Zen, with
about the same PE and BC. Zen has a higher IC.
Sims show very little difference in the results of
using either count.

IMHO the symmetry of the Mentor tags is appealing.
Mr. Renzey has done a fine job presenting his work
on Mentor. Counters seeking additional EV should
consider either Mentor or Zen, over level 1 counts.
Additional EV can help offset 6D/8D liabilities, if shoes
mainly comprise your local games. They can, however,
be more difficult to learn and use.

Know your limitations. Simple is sometimes better.

BJinNJ :cool:
Click to expand...

Mentor looks relatively easy to me as compared to Zen or Revere.

I have Hilo down now and am learning new indices daily as well as specific hand indices.

I am however not having that great of luck and want a bit more of an edge. Mentor looks like a good system and I was wondering why there is only 1 person polled that uses it.

thanks for the reply.
 
BJinNJ said:
Fred does a nice job of explaining why 2DTC is slightly better than 1DTC, for
most people. But I have no problem dividing integers, and decimals are my play-
ground. So indices like 6.5 or 3.5 are no problem. My only problem is counting
fast enough, right now. I hope top have another go at CT or AC before the holidays,
on some slow weekday.(skip out of work) :)

BJinNJ :cool:
Click to expand...
Use the right practice software and you'll easily break 120-secs for 6D.
Before there was practice software like NeUltra there was Revere count practice charts - I could do 6D in 70-secs (RPC). zg
 
Thanks, zg.

I think my main problem is that I don't practice every day. I have
CVBJ at home, but admittedly don't force myself to use it daily.
I can't seem to break 40 secs for one deck using my current
practice regime. And, I should start counting/canceling pairs, too.

I just have to find the best, most fun way for me to practice count.
Maybe I'll try Ne Ultra or SmartCards.

And to make matters worse, my employer is changing my work
schedule and I now have one less day off each week :cry: , which
I once viewed as my 'go to the casino day', either AC or CT.

BJinNJ :cool:
 
BJinNJ said:
I think my main problem is that I don't practice every day. I have
CVBJ at home, but admittedly don't force myself to use it daily.
I can't seem to break 40 secs for one deck using my current
practice regime. And, I should start counting/canceling pairs, too.

I just have to find the best, most fun way for me to practice count.
Maybe I'll try Ne Ultra or SmartCards.

And to make matters worse, my employer is changing my work
schedule and I now have one less day off each week :cry: , which
I once viewed as my 'go to the casino day', either AC or CT.

BJinNJ :cool:
Click to expand...

You dont need a computer to improve your speed. Buy a deck of cards. Carry them with you. If you take the train, count down a couple of decks. Drive to work, count down a deck at the light. Eating lunch, take a bite, count down a deck, then you'll be ready for the next bite.
Multi-tasking is the way to go...
It took me about a month just to cut 1 sec off my speed, so be patient. Went from a steady 29sec down to 25sec. in four months,(2 level).

BJC
 
Last edited:
That's what I do. I carry a deck with me at work, and use
CVBJ at home. The deck I carry has a box sooo worn out, that
I actually had to use packaging tape to keep it together last
week. Should be good for another 6 months, now. :grin:

Kevin Blackwood wrote that he did an intensive 3 day assault
to get his speed up. That might be just the ticket for some
rainy weekend. He just counted thousands of decks down.

BJinNJ :cool:
 
BJinNJ said:
That's what I do. I carry a deck with me at work, and use
CVBJ at home. The deck I carry has a box sooo worn out, that
I actually had to use packaging tape to keep it together last
week. Should be good for another 6 months, now. :grin:

Kevin Blackwood wrote that he did an intensive 3 day assault
to get his speed up. That might be just the ticket for some
rainy weekend. He just counted thousands of decks down.

BJinNJ :cool:
Click to expand...

I probably should do what you do. I found that I am okay on the tables, so I never worked on speed, but I'm sure it would make me even better. The biggest problem I have is remembering the RC when there are major interruptions--they pause to replenish the bank, a friend spots me and comes over and starts a conversation, the dealer, the pit person or a player strikes up a conversation, someone spills a drink, the Yankees hit three back to back home runs, the list is infinite. My current practice is to imagine a physical picture of the number, which for some reason seems easier to recall. Have you got any tips on this?
 
Not sure if I'm the right one to offer advice, as I've only
been to a casino once, since taking up AP blackjack.

I've thought of a few different ways to remember the RC.
Use a stack, or two, of chips. Use a couple rings and change
the fingers they're on to record the RC. Keep some coins in
one pocket and move them to another pocket. A dime, a nickel
and five pennies could keep a RC up to +/- 20, depending on
the pocket they're in. Use chewing gum and keep it on the number
of the tooth of the RC. (yes, teeth are numbered by dentists 1-32)

Hey, I like that last idea!

I'm sure you'll come up with better ideas.

BJinNJ :cool:
 
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