Proper spread?

junior_counter

junior_counter

Active Member
#1
#1
I've been playing spreads of only 1-5, in 6, 8 deck shoe games using Hi-Low Count. Use this bet variation as indicated in Wong's Pro Blackjack, varied a bit for table min: TC -1 to +1= 1 unit(base unit, table minimum). Increased bet to 2 units at TC+2, 3 units at TC+3, 4 units at TC+4, max out at 5 units for TC+5 and up. Wong out at -2.

I've been slowly winning and have won about 1/3 bankroll to date. I have a running record of two types:
1)~ 200 hours of play lifetime counting record (not always 100% sharp, un heavily practiced, hence minor mistakes in basic strategy, count and bet variation here and there). 2) ~ 90 hours more recent, very sharp, heavily practiced playing.

I understand from reading most blogs, this spread is too low, and 1-8, or 1-10 is more appropriate.

My question is, how is the proper spread of 1-8, or 1-10 achieved? Are more units added as the count goes beyond +5? i.e. TC+6= 6 units, TC+7 = 7 units, etc... Getting TC counts greater then +5 does not happen often. If I am on the right track with bet variation, then I understand to increase to 10 units, when TC hits +10, hence using a 1-10 spread. But as mentioned it seems very unlikely the count will be that high to reach the high units.

The other guess is, those who use a 1-10 spread, are just doubling the units from the 1-5 spread strategy mentioned above? i.e. increase to 4 units at TC+2, 6 units at TC+3, 8 units at TC+4, and 10 units at TC+5 and greater?

Please advise. Thanks in advance. JrC.
 
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boneuphtoner

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
junior_counter said:
I've been playing spreads of only 1-5, in 6, 8 deck shoe games using Hi-Low Count. Use this bet variation as indicated in Wong's Pro Blackjack, varied a bit for table min: TC -1 to +1= 1 unit(base unit, table minimum). Increased bet to 2 units at TC+2, 3 units at TC+3, 4 units at TC+4, max out at 5 units for TC+5 and up. Wong out at -2.

I've been slowly winning and have won about 1/3 bankroll to date. I have a running record of two types:
1)~ 200 hours of play lifetime counting record (not always 100% sharp, un heavily practiced, hence minor mistakes in basic strategy, count and bet variation here and there). 2) ~ 90 hours more recent, very sharp, heavily practiced playing.

I understand from reading most blogs, this spread is too low, and 1-8, or 1-10 is more appropriate.

My question is, how is the proper spread of 1-8, or 1-10 achieved? Are more units added as the count goes beyond +5? i.e. TC+6= 6 units, TC+7 = 7 units, etc... Getting TC counts greater then +5 does not happen often. If I am on the right track with bet variation, then I understand to increase to 10 units, when TC hits +10, hence using a 1-10 spread. But as mentioned it seems very unlikely the count will be that high to reach the high units.

The other guess is, those who use a 1-10 spread, are just doubling the units from the 1-5 spread strategy mentioned above? i.e. increase to 4 units at TC+2, 6 units at TC+3, 8 units at TC+4, and 10 units at TC+5 and greater?

Please advise. Thanks in advance. JrC.
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See this thread...not saying that you shouldn't go to a 1-10 spread, but some people, myself included, don't feel that they are necessary.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=18713&highlight=spreads+high
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
spread, it all depends........

a 'proper' spread i guess would be some ideal spread, it's gonna be based on the game you are playing (rules, #decks, #players, penetration, your bankroll (overall & trip roll), your counting method and what risk of ruin you desire.
there is gonna be some optimal spread for some game and some bankroll according to full kelly betting, sorta thing. then you might adjust that for practical reasons.
pretty much this means a blackjack simulator such as CV products would be a big help.
 
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bigplayer

Well-Known Member
#4
#4
boneuphtoner said:
See this thread...not saying that you shouldn't go to a 1-10 spread, but some people, myself included, don't feel that they are necessary.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=18713&highlight=spreads+high
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You can get away with 20-1 spreads on shoes fairly easily...the count builds slowly and stays there a while. You get all of your EV for an hour all at one time and then you leave before the casino knows what hit them.
 
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boneuphtoner

Well-Known Member
#6
#6
It depends on what you want

I wouldn't ever recommend anyone spread less than 1-12 on an 8 decker, and that's with wonging out.
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For a professional or someone playing with money that is supplementing their income agree, I would agree. Anything less won't give you a decent enough win rate. However, there is another point of view with respect to spreading. See this post:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=14895

Kewljason posted this in his response to a thread I posted about spreads for amateurs that were needlessly too high. Very interesting stuff. With adequate wonging, you can beat an 8 decker with a 1-2 spread. You won't make much doing it, but to say that you MUST have a huge spread to beat the game just isn't supported by the sims. The KO book also talks about smaller spreads still achieving a positive expectation in that book.
 
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BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
junior_counter said:
I've been playing spreads of only 1-5, in 6, 8 deck shoe games using Hi-Low Count. Use this bet variation as indicated in Wong's Pro Blackjack, varied a bit for table min: TC -1 to +1= 1 unit(base unit, table minimum). Increased bet to 2 units at TC+2, 3 units at TC+3, 4 units at TC+4, max out at 5 units for TC+5 and up. Wong out at -2.

I've been slowly winning and have won about 1/3 bankroll to date. I have a running record of two types:
1)~ 200 hours of play lifetime counting record (not always 100% sharp, un heavily practiced, hence minor mistakes in basic strategy, count and bet variation here and there). 2) ~ 90 hours more recent, very sharp, heavily practiced playing.

I understand from reading most blogs, this spread is too low, and 1-8, or 1-10 is more appropriate.

My question is, how is the proper spread of 1-8, or 1-10 achieved? Are more units added as the count goes beyond +5? i.e. TC+6= 6 units, TC+7 = 7 units, etc... Getting TC counts greater then +5 does not happen often. If I am on the right track with bet variation, then I understand to increase to 10 units, when TC hits +10, hence using a 1-10 spread. But as mentioned it seems very unlikely the count will be that high to reach the high units.

The other guess is, those who use a 1-10 spread, are just doubling the units from the 1-5 spread strategy mentioned above? i.e. increase to 4 units at TC+2, 6 units at TC+3, 8 units at TC+4, and 10 units at TC+5 and greater?

Please advise. Thanks in advance. JrC.
Click to expand...
I have never wong out. When the TC is negative, just bet minimal and use index play. My bets on 6/8 decks:

TC Bet Units
+1 3
+2 5
+3 8
+4 10
+5 12
+6 14
+7 16
+8 or higher 20 or table max if I know I am leaving at the end of the shoe.

Playing double deck, my bet is half of the values listed above.
 
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BillytheBJkid

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
BJgenius007 said:
I have never wong out. When the TC is negative, just bet minimal and use index play. My bets on 6/8 decks:

TC Bet Units
+1 3
+2 5
+3 8
+4 10
+5 12
+6 14
+7 16
+8 or higher 20 or table max if I know I am leaving

Playing double deck, my bet is half of the values listed above.
Click to expand...
Wonging out lets you miss all those negative counts and will improve your results a lot, dude. +8 true count doesn't happen very often in a 8 deck game.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
boneuphtoner said:
For a professional or someone playing with money that is supplementing their income agree, I would agree. Anything less won't give you a decent enough win rate. However, there is another point of view with respect to spreading. See this post:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=14895

Kewljason posted this in his response to a thread I posted about spreads for amateurs that were needlessly too high. Very interesting stuff. With adequate wonging, you can beat an 8 decker with a 1-2 spread. You won't make much doing it, but to say that you MUST have a huge spread to beat the game just isn't supported by the sims. The KO book also talks about smaller spreads still achieving a positive expectation in that book.
Click to expand...
I'm assuming that you mean that the reason people are limiting their spreads is bankroll considerations. I.e. someone has a short bankroll, and they'd rather spread 10-80 than 10-120.

I was saying that you really shouldn't spread less than 1-12 even with wonging, assuming you're limiting your spread for heat reasons. No reason to get paranoid about a spread that small on an 8 decker.

In reality, though, the best solution is back-counting. You can bet optimally for most bankrolls, the EV is good, and there's little to no heat.
 
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bjcount

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
psyduck said:
The "proper" spread is dictated by the amount of risk you can take. It is up to individual players.
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The proper spread first needs to be able to beat the game your playing, Then you need to determine what your time is worth if beating the game with the spread your using is only winning $10/hr and your satisfied with that.

Once you determined what the minimum hourly rate of pay your willing to accept that will give you a base to work from.

A 1-8 spread is very weak even for a 6d game with decent rules unless your backcounting or wonging. If your playing all because the stores busy and theres no open tables to switch to, go home or take a break till things quiet down.

The few times per hour or day that those big counts come your way just close your eyes and push out to 2 boxes with 16 units ea.. Think about it, 4 rounds at 8 units ea is very weak while 1 round of 2 x 16 is respectfully strong, same 32 units and if all big cards come out your count probably just dropped below max bet level anyway so you took full advantage of the opportunity.

If the pit comes over on the big jump, so what, you had a feeling. If you play there frequently the pit will become used to seeing this action from you.

JMO

BJC

Edit: of course bankroll (fixed or replenishable) and RoR considerations are important to consider too
 
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caramel6

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
bjcount said:
The proper spread first needs to be able to beat the game your playing, Then you need to determine what your time is worth if beating the game with the spread your using is only winning $10/hr and your satisfied with that.

Once you determined what the minimum hourly rate of pay your willing to accept that will give you a base to work from.

A 1-8 spread is very weak even for a 6d game with decent rules unless your backcounting or wonging. If your playing all because the stores busy and theres no open tables to switch to, go home or take a break till things quiet down.

The few times per hour or day that those big counts come your way just close your eyes and push out to 2 boxes with 16 units ea.. Think about it, 4 rounds at 8 units ea is very weak while 1 round of 2 x 16 is respectfully strong, same 32 units and if all big cards come out your count probably just dropped below max bet level anyway so you took full advantage of the opportunity.

If the pit comes over on the big jump, so what, you had a feeling. If you play there frequently the pit will become used to seeing this action from you.

JMO

BJC

Edit: of course bankroll (fixed or replenishable) and RoR considerations are important to consider too
Click to expand...
Does it matter how many boxes are opened or how many decks left till the end of the shoe? I play mostly 8 decks. Also, you close eyes, max bet... lost... Count still great, so try again same bet? And what if lost again?
 
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bjcount

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
caramel6 said:
Does it matter how many boxes are opened or how many decks left till the end of the shoe? I play mostly 8 decks. Also, you close eyes, max bet... lost... Count still great, so try again same bet? And what if lost again?
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The general theory is that when you have the maximum advantage (of course we're talking only in the range of ~2.5% or >) you should have your maximum bet out. Unfortunately we all encountered our worst loses at the highest counts as we get slaughtered by the house winning hand after hand.

Some will talk about the floating advantage (you said: how many decks left till the end of the shoe), if you have a TC at the top of a shoe which calls for your max bet, why pass up on the opportunity which can last a longer time then when there is just 1 deck left to play in, but thats just my opinion.

How many boxes you open will effect your variance and risk, usually it will lower them if your bet sizing is optimal and you adjust the bet proportional to the number of boxes. There are other factors too but this is just a short response but others are more then welcome to reply in a full blown version (which probably can be found if you did a search). If your going to vary your bets at the time you should be at max you are just on the road to commit hari-kari with your bankroll.

I'm not endorsing cvcx or cvdata, but if you are serious about winning, have spent the time to learn a playing strategy, and are really not sure how much or when to properly raise your bets, then you shouldn't wait any longer to at the very least purchase qfit's software, CVCX.

BJC
 
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caramel6

Well-Known Member
#14
#14
bjcount said:
The general theory is that when you have the maximum advantage (of course we're talking only in the range of ~2.5% or >) you should have your maximum bet out. Unfortunately we all encountered our worst loses at the highest counts as we get slaughtered by the house winning hand after hand.

Some will talk about the floating advantage (you said: how many decks left till the end of the shoe), if you have a TC at the top of a shoe which calls for your max bet, why pass up on the opportunity which can last a longer time then when there is just 1 deck left to play in, but thats just my opinion.

How many boxes you open will effect your variance and risk, usually it will lower them if your bet sizing is optimal and you adjust the bet proportional to the number of boxes. There are other factors too but this is just a short response but others are more then welcome to reply in a full blown version (which probably can be found if you did a search). If your going to vary your bets at the time you should be at max you are just on the road to commit hari-kari with your bankroll.

I'm not endorsing cvcx or cvdata, but if you are serious about winning, have spent the time to learn a playing strategy, and are really not sure how much or when to properly raise your bets, then you shouldn't wait any longer to at the very least purchase qfit's software, CVCX.

BJC
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What about a following attitude: 1. wait for a TC 3 and more. 2.Put max bet if only 2 boxes opened (together with my own or play behind if you are sure in his play). 3. Play till either :a. won 1 unit (should be a large one to justify all waiting for a good count) or b. lose 2 unitsand stop play in this shoe (just to avoid dead streak or bad variance). Reasons:a.if lose 2 large units, count might drop or if not, bad variance might strike and lose more b. in my situation I can usually find 2-3 good situations for a tc3 per day with a 2 boxes max opened.c. Winnig 2 large units (for example of 100 each would complete my task for a day.apologies for my English which is not my mothertongue
 
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bjcount

Well-Known Member
#15
#15
caramel6 said:
What about a following attitude: 1. wait for a TC 3 and more. 2.Put max bet if only 2 boxes opened (together with my own or play behind if you are sure in his play). 3. Play till either :a. won 1 unit (should be a large one to justify all waiting for a good count) or b. lose 2 unitsand stop play in this shoe (just to avoid dead streak or bad variance). Reasons:a.if lose 2 large units, count might drop or if not, bad variance might strike and lose more b. in my situation I can usually find 2-3 good situations for a tc3 per day with a 2 boxes max opened.c. Winnig 2 large units (for example of 100 each would complete my task for a day.apologies for my English which is not my mothertongue
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Sorry but I'm not going to try and evaluate or comment on any scenario. If that plan works for you, good luck.

BJC
 
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caramel6

Well-Known Member
#16
#16
bjcount said:
Sorry but I'm not going to try and evaluate or comment on any scenario. If that plan works for you, good luck.

BJC
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meaning of my post was not to ask for an evaluations or for approval or disaproval, we all trying to beat this game, so I was trying to pay attention on probably less common approach for wonging, may be not a right thread?
 
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sabre

Well-Known Member
#17
#17
If you think walking away from a good count because you either won/lost the last bet is a good idea, you need to reevaluate your understanding of advantage play.
 
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