Question by a Newbie

[chorgi]

I've been playing blackjack for about 10 months now. I didn't know anything about the game before that period. I started playing using basic strategy from day one. Within a week or two I started learning to count using the KO method. Since then, I've learned to play using the KO Preferred methodology fairly successful in a casino environment. I've read the KO book, Blackjack Bluebook II, and Beat the Dealer. I just ordered Blackbelt in Blackjack and Blackjack Attack. So far I've done pretty good at counting (I've practiced, what for me, seems like a lot), though I have some questions about that, as well (posted a question and an introduction in the Card Counting section of this forum, too).

From what I've read on this site and on a few other sites, there are other ways of gaining an advantage in blackjack other than counting. My question is what is a good place to start in learning some of these other AP methods? Can these methods be used in conjunction with counting or is it an entirely different approach to AP play? I would also like to know people's opinions on topics such as using stop loses on their playing to help protect profits and increase their long term advantage.

Something a friend of mine in Vegas told me that she does, as well, is that she's learned to read the dealer (she's primarily a poker player). She says that not all dealers are as obvious as others, but because being a dealer is so automated because they deal thousands and thousands of hands that many of them give out queues that can become profitable. For example, the 4 and A look similar and often the dealer will look longer at their hole card or even check it twice to ensure they have it right. Or when asking for insurance, the dealer will often make a subconscious jester towards the shoe preparing to deal more cards (indicating that they do not have a blackjack). I'm curious what you all think of this type of observation and whether anyone has had any luck gaining a further advantage from doing something like this.

Any information, advice, or help anyone could give would be greatly appreciated. I've been lurking on this forum for a while, and I've really enjoyed learning from and reading the posts from the other members. Thanks!

 

[Sonny]

My question is what is a good place to start in learning some of these other AP methods?

This thread will get you started:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3995

Can these methods be used in conjunction with counting or is it an entirely different approach to AP play?

Some of them are used in conjunction with counting, but many of them are completely separate.

I would also like to know people's opinions on topics such as using stop loses on their playing to help protect profits and increase their long term advantage.

That’s voodoo stuff. They do not increase your advantage or protect your profits in any way. In some cases they can actually reduce your win rate significantly.

http://www.blackjackincolor.com/useless1.htm

Something a friend of mine in Vegas told me that she does, as well, is that she's learned to read the dealer (she's primarily a poker player).

That is not helpful in blackjack since the dealers do not peek at their hole cards.

-Sonny-

 

[chorgi]

This thread will get you started:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3995




Some of them are used in conjunction with counting, but many of them are completely separate.



That’s voodoo stuff. They do not increase your advantage or protect your profits in any way. In some cases they can actually reduce your win rate significantly.

http://www.blackjackincolor.com/useless1.htm



That is not helpful in blackjack since the dealers do not peek at their hole cards.

-Sonny-

Thank you for replying and for supplying the information. It's very helpful.

When I asked about a stop loss, I was actually thinking of a trailing stop loss as profits increased... say if you played for two hours and were up $200. Then you'd take that $200 and cash it in and then continue playing the rest of the night (if you chose to) as if you were starting the day over again (or similar exit strategies as the night's action began to swing). The only reason I ask is because I know a lot of people who trade the stock market and commodity markets (whether long term or short term) use trailing stop losses to insure profits as the market is moving. Most "expert" traders recommend it, and I was wondering how that would apply to something like blackjack as well.

As for the dealer thing, I know, at least here where I'm at, that the dealer does look at their hole card if there is a potential for a blackjack on their part. There's a mirror thing that they slide the hold card under to check what it is. I think my friend was referring to observing their behavior when doing that or if they made subconscious movements toward the shoe when asking for insurance. I do think that a lot of that type of stuff would be too subjective to offer any real value... but I was just curious if anyone else had ever given it any thought before.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[21gunsalute]

Thank you for replying and for supplying the information. It's very helpful.

When I asked about a stop loss, I was actually thinking of a trailing stop loss as profits increased... say if you played for two hours and were up $200. Then you'd take that $200 and cash it in and then continue playing the rest of the night (if you chose to) as if you were starting the day over again (or similar exit strategies as the night's action began to swing). The only reason I ask is because I know a lot of people who trade the stock market and commodity markets (whether long term or short term) use trailing stop losses to insure profits as the market is moving. Most "expert" traders recommend it, and I was wondering how that would apply to something like blackjack as well.

As for the dealer thing, I know, at least here where I'm at, that the dealer does look at their hole card if there is a potential for a blackjack on their part. There's a mirror thing that they slide the hold card under to check what it is. I think my friend was referring to observing their behavior when doing that or if they made subconscious movements toward the shoe when asking for insurance. I do think that a lot of that type of stuff would be too subjective to offer any real value... but I was just curious if anyone else had ever given it any thought before.

Thanks again for your help!

The point is the dealer doesn't check until after insurance is offered and then never actually sees what value card is in the hole when she does check. Blackjack decks have special symbols in the corners above the regular markings for 10 value cards and Aces. The dealer will know if she has a blackjack or not, but won't be able to see the value of the card if she doesn't. The symbols for Aces are in the opposite corner than that for 10 value cards which is why you'll see the dealer turn the card 90 degrees to check. So you can't really get any dealer tells this way.

 

[Sucker]

Only 2 possibilities exist:
1) Your friend is a liar.
2) Your friend is a very stupid person who actually BELIEVES it HERSELF.

 

[zengrifter]

Most "expert" traders recommend it, and I was wondering how that would apply to something like blackjack as well.

As for the dealer thing, I know, at least here where I'm at, that the dealer does look at their hole card if there is a potential for a blackjack on their part. There's a mirror thing that they slide the hold card under to check what it is.

The trader stop-loss is not applicable to BJ
As for the mirror-peek thing, the dealer cannot see the card value, only whether its a ten or non-ten. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Only 2 possibilities exist:
1) Your friend is a liar.
2) Your friend is a very stupid person who actually BELIEVES it HERSELF.

I vote #2. Is she Asian? zg

 

[MangoJ]

When I asked about a stop loss, I was actually thinking of a trailing stop loss as profits increased... say if you played for two hours and were up $200. Then you'd take that $200 and cash it in and then continue playing the rest of the night (if you chose to) as if you were starting the day over again (or similar exit strategies as the night's action began to swing). The only reason I ask is because I know a lot of people who trade the stock market and commodity markets (whether long term or short term) use trailing stop losses to insure profits as the market is moving. Most "expert" traders recommend it, and I was wondering how that would apply to something like blackjack as well.

I cannot speak for trading, but for games - where results are independent of the past performance, it doesn't matter if you continue on the same evening, or the next day. If you apply a "stop loss", all you do is limit yourself in playing time - which simply means loss of expected money.

As for trading: I guess a significant fraction of traders do apply a stop condition (stop win or stop loss). However traders are competing each other at the same markets. Assuming one is successful at trading (performing better than the average), and assuming only the weak trader apply stop conditions, wouldn't it be better to trade only while the weaks are still around (at earlier hours), and leave when the sharp trader (at later hours) will be the majority of the market ?

 

[ningtong88]

The point is the dealer doesn't check until after insurance is offered and then never actually sees what value card is in the hole when she does check. Blackjack decks have special symbols in the corners above the regular markings for 10 value cards and Aces. The dealer will know if she has a blackjack or not, but won't be able to see the value of the card if she doesn't. The symbols for Aces are in the opposite corner than that for 10 value cards which is why you'll see the dealer turn the card 90 degrees to check. So you can't really get any dealer tells this way.

Dealers can see the hole card value if the upcard is an ace. If you look at the cards closely, you will see aces have ace showing in all 4 corners but all other cards only have their values showing at 2 corners. It is the same for tens and non-tens, so when dealer checks for bj when he/she has an ace showing, he/she will see what the hole card is, but when the dealer has a ten showing, he will only see if the ace is there or not. I confirmed this from two dealers from two different casinos

 

[Shoofly]

Dealers can see the hole card value if the upcard is an ace. If you look at the cards closely, you will see aces have ace showing in all 4 corners but all other cards only have their values showing at 2 corners. It is the same for tens and non-tens, so when dealer checks for bj when he/she has an ace showing, he/she will see what the hole card is, but when the dealer has a ten showing, he will only see if the ace is there or not. I confirmed this from two dealers from two different casinos

Look even more closely. Make sure you are looking at a deck from a casino and you will see that even though the ace is showing in all 4 corners, in 2 of the corners the A is raised and in the other 2 the A is lowered.

 

[tthree]

Look even more closely. Make sure you are looking at a deck from a casino and you will see that even though the ace is showing in all 4 corners, in 2 of the corners the A is raised and in the other 2 the A is lowered.

I agree with Shoofly. They either see nothing or something they are not looking for denomination and the casino knows they don't want them to see denomination. The dealers I talk to say slide the one corner in and only an ace is not blank. Slide the other corner in and only a T is not blank. By only placing the print for those denominations close enough to the appropriate corners you can check for blackjacks without giving the dealer information that would allow for dealer tells. They changed to this way to prevent dealer tells and bending of cards due to peeking causing an unintentional marking of cards. I think it is naive to think that this system that so easily eliminates the dealer ever seeing the denomination of the hole card unless he has a blackjack was not done in this manner.

 

[chorgi]

Thanks For the Information

I guess there's more to it than meets the eye when the dealer in checking to see if they have a natural or not. I just assumed, as well as my friend, that the just saw the card. Can't even trust what you observe sometimes, eh?

 

[Rael]

Stop losses.

It has psychological value only. If loosing more than a certain amount will cause you to play incorrectly, both in terms of actual counting and the apprehension of placing your max bets, then you should have a stop loss based on your bankroll, ror, and length of your sessions or trips.

Rael

 

[Gamblor]

I guess there's more to it than meets the eye when the dealer in checking to see if they have a natural or not. I just assumed, as well as my friend, that the just saw the card. Can't even trust what you observe sometimes, eh?

Either your friend learned all about BJ from watching the movie Casino, or was caught in a temporal anomaly from somewhere in the 50's-70's and sent forward in time to tell you all he knows about BJ.