Question for everyone regarding two hands

[winnawinna]

I am a new member here but I have been reading the posts for some time and many of you guys have provided exceptional advice for my BJ game. I wanted to know if I am doing the right thing since I just got back from one of my worst sessions ever. I HAD a 10K bankroll prior to this session. I am using the advanced Red Seven count playing a 6 deck, S17 DAS LS with 75-80% pen. I always have played two hands during all counts from start to finish. My spread is from 1-5 (still kinda scared). I have been playing $30-$50 dollar units. Is this too high for my BR. This past two days I lost over 200 units of my BR...was this beyond the SD? Should I play one hand instead and spread to two hands during counts above my pivot of "0"? I think my RoR is very high for my game. What should I now be betting as a unit size? Thanks so much in advance...

 

[tthree]

This is a primary concern for me but Im not sure Im strong in knowledge. I often hear 400 units as enough of a BR. That would be about a $25 unit for you. A 1 to 5 spread seems a little small. Make sure you know your surrender indices they can save you a lot when you start getting stiffs with big bets out. L will leave the rest for other people to comment on.

 

[metronome]

My first red flag is "playing two hands during all counts from start to finish." Yikes.
Play-all, with two hands regardless of the count???
IMHO, yes, that's to steep for your BR.

 

[aslan]

This is a primary concern for me but Im not sure Im strong in knowledge. I often hear 400 units as enough of a BR. That would be about a $25 unit for you. A 1 to 5 spread seems a little small. Make sure you know your surrender indices they can save you a lot when you start getting stiffs with big bets out. L will leave the rest for other people to comment on.

My rule of thumb has always been 100 max bets (total bankroll, not trip or session bankroll). That would mean a $10K bankroll would cover only a $10 game with $100 max bet. The spread should be 1 to 10 minimum from what I have read, unless one's bankroll can afford more, which it cannot in this case. I use KO, which is equivalent to what the OP is using. I think he is betting too high (base unit), unless his bankroll is larger than indicated, and spreading too low. He should not play two hands except in plus counts, except as a matter of cover from time to time.

 

[winnawinna]

My rule of thumb has always been 100 max bets (total bankroll, not trip or session bankroll). That would mean a $10K bankroll would cover only a $10 game with $100 max bet. The spread should be 1 to 10 minimum from what I have read, unless one's bankroll can afford more, which it cannot in this case. I use KO, which is equivalent to what the OP is using. I think he is betting too high (base unit), unless his bankroll is larger than indicated, and spreading too low. He should not play two hands except in plus counts, except as a matter of cover from time to time.

Aslan thank you for letting me know about that. I was thinking that I was betting too high for my BR. So do you ONLY recommend that I spread to 2 hands after a plus count? Do you think KO is a better system than Red7? I find the Red7 is very easy to use and is virtually error free. No need for TC conversions either just "true edge" conversions.

 

[aslan]

Aslan thank you for letting me know about that. I was thinking that I was betting too high for my BR. So do you ONLY recommend that I spread to 2 hands after a plus count? Do you think KO is a better system than Red7? I find the Red7 is very easy to use and is virtually error free. No need for TC conversions either just "true edge" conversions.

I believe the two systems are comparable.

I tend to get out of my depth, too, but my bankroll is replenishible, so I can get away with it. If this is your situation, as well, then maybe a $25 game is not too much, but it means a replenisible bankroll up to $25,000.

Two hands during negative counts means you are exposing yourself doubly to a negative EV. That doesn't make any sense. Most on here will say that your should play one hand in negative counts and heads up with the dealer in positive counts, and two hands with one or two other players in positive counts. If you have to play all (with wonging out), then you might need to camo your switch to two hands, sometimes playing two hands in neutral counts, and sometimes playing one hand in positive counts. Oftentimes, I cannot switch to two hands because the tables are so crowded. Also, if a place is sweaty, you might want to exercise caution. When I switch to two hands in positive counts, I limit my bet on each hand to about 75% of what I would have bet on one hand alone. So if my max bet is $250, I will bet two hands of $200; if my max bet is $100, two hands of $75.

 

[winnawinna]

I believe the two systems are comparable.

I tend to get out of my depth, too, but my bankroll is replenishible, so I can get away with it. If this is your situation, as well, then maybe a $25 game is not too much, but it means a replenisible bankroll up to $25,000.

Two hands during negative counts means you are exposing yourself doubly to a negative EV. That doesn't make any sense. Most on here will say that your should play one hand in negative counts and heads up with the dealer in positive counts, and two hands with one or two other players in positive counts. If you have to play all (with wonging out), then you might need to camo your switch to two hands, sometimes playing two hands in neutral counts, and sometimes playing one hand in positive counts. Oftentimes, I cannot switch to two hands because the tables are so crowded. Also, if a place is sweaty, you might want to exercise caution. When I switch to two hands in positive counts, I limit my bet on each hand to about 75% of what I would have bet on one hand alone. So if my max bet is $250, I will bet two hands of $200; if my max bet is $100, two hands of $75.

Great advice Aslan...the store I play at has virtually no heat and the pit bosses are very nice. I think they know I am a counter from my style of play since I start increasing my bets as all the ploppies start lowering their bets as the count increases. My BR is replenishable but not at a 25K level, more like 10K. So to sum it up, your advice is to play at a $10 table spreading to $100-150? What would my RoR be if I played at a $25 table and spread to 250?

 

[zengrifter]

I am a new member here but I have been reading the posts for some time and many of you guys have provided exceptional advice for my BJ game. I wanted to know if I am doing the right thing since I just got back from one of my worst sessions ever. I HAD a 10K bankroll prior to this session. I am using the advanced Red Seven count playing a 6 deck, S17 DAS LS with 75-80% pen. I always have played two hands during all counts from start to finish. My spread is from 1-5 (still kinda scared). I have been playing $30-$50 dollar units. Is this too high for my BR.

You were grossly over-betting with insufficient spread IF you played all counts. zg

 

[zengrifter]

My first red flag is "playing two hands during all counts from start to finish." Yikes.
Play-all, with two hands regardless of the count???

Actually, the two hands constant was okay, was not a problem. zg

 

[zengrifter]

The spread should be 1 to 10 minimum from what I have read, unless one's bankroll can afford more, which it cannot in this case.

Spread is a function relative to correctly sized max bet.
Increasing spread should never involve raising the max per'se, only reducing the min bet. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Two hands during negative counts means you are exposing yourself doubly to a negative EV.

Not IF they are correctly sized. In fact, playing two hands as a constant can actually
increase the overall counter advantage, due to cut-card effect and related factors. zg

 

[zengrifter]

What would my RoR be if I played at a $25 table and spread to 250?

High. And 1-10 spread won't cut it at this game in play-all mode anyway.
On the other hand, a 1-5 spread is plenty IF you avoid all negEV counts. zg

 

[jnrwilliam]

High. And 1-10 spread won't cut it at this game in play-all mode anyway.
On the other hand, a 1-5 spread is plenty IF you avoid all negEV counts. zg

if i bet $100 x 1 box,
total $147 at 2 box, total $173 at 3 bx, var 1.26.
do i encounter same ROR ?
what is SD/100 hands for above 1, 2 & 3 box respectively?
any web. or software can calulate ROR upto 1 in a million ?

thanks for any or all.

 

[winnawinna]

High. And 1-10 spread won't cut it at this game in play-all mode anyway.
On the other hand, a 1-5 spread is plenty IF you avoid all negEV counts. zg

Zen, you dont think a 1-10 spread would be sufficient for my set of rules? So with my BR you also recommend a $10 starting bet increasing to perhaps $150 at the true edge of 4+? Since I dont backcount at all, I play most hands. When the count gets too low, then I wong out but I play 90% of all hands. Could the reason of my large winning and losing sessions be the result of a high RoR? I should lower my Ror and EV and reduce my bet to a more manageable unit size then right?

 

[aslan]

Great advice Aslan...the store I play at has virtually no heat and the pit bosses are very nice. I think they know I am a counter from my style of play since I start increasing my bets as all the ploppies start lowering their bets as the count increases. My BR is replenishable but not at a 25K level, more like 10K. So to sum it up, your advice is to play at a $10 table spreading to $100-150? What would my RoR be if I played at a $25 table and spread to 250?

I don't know exactly offhand, but with a $10,000 total (unreplenishible) bankroll it will be unacceptably high. If you meant your bankroll is replenishible up to a second $10,000, i.e., you have a total $20,000 bankroll, it might be low enough depending on your comfort zone, however, I would want a $25,000 bankroll (100 times max bet).

 

[aslan]

Not IF they are correctly sized. In fact, playing two hands as a constant can actually
increase the overall counter advantage, due to cut-card effect and related factors. zg

Not in the situation I was describing. But if you increase you max bet on each hand, then I agree that you can play two hands in negative counts and still increase your overall advantage. But it won't work if you don't increase your max bet, and in the games I play, that is usually prohibitive due to the constraints of my bankroll. ArockefellerZ

PS-- Describe the details of your resizing strategy. Do you double your max bet, or raise it a lesser percentage?

 

[winnawinna]

I don't know exactly offhand, but with a $10,000 total (unreplenishible) bankroll it will be unacceptably high. If you meant your bankroll is replenishible up to a second $10,000, i.e., you have a total $20,000 bankroll, it might be low enough depending on your comfort zone, however, I would want a $25,000 bankroll (100 times max bet).

Well its replenishable but not right away...so your advice is to play $10-15 dollar starting bets and increase to a 10 or 15 spread? Should I play two hands right off the start of the shoe or stay with one and increase to two hands in +counts

 

[winnawinna]

Not in the situation I was describing. But if you increase you max bet on each hand, then I agree that you can play two hands in negative counts and still increase your overall advantage. But it won't work if you don't increase your max bet, and in the games I play, that is usually prohibitive due to the constraints of my bankroll. ArockefellerZ

PS-- Describe the details of your resizing strategy. Do you double your max bet, or raise it a lesser percentage?

What do you mean...increase ur max bet on each hand?

 

[tthree]

My rule of thumb has always been 100 max bets (total bankroll, not trip or session bankroll). That would mean a $10K bankroll would cover only a $10 game with $100 max bet. The spread should be 1 to 10 minimum from what I have read, unless one's bankroll can afford more, which it cannot in this case. I use KO, which is equivalent to what the OP is using. I think he is betting too high (base unit), unless his bankroll is larger than indicated, and spreading too low. He should not play two hands except in plus counts, except as a matter of cover from time to time.

Thanx for pointing out my mistake Aslan. I forgot to divide the green chip max bet by his bet spread to come up with $5 min bet.

 

[tthree]

I believe the two systems are comparable.

I tend to get out of my depth, too, but my bankroll is replenishible, so I can get away with it. If this is your situation, as well, then maybe a $25 game is not too much, but it means a replenisible bankroll up to $25,000.

Two hands during negative counts means you are exposing yourself doubly to a negative EV. That doesn't make any sense. Most on here will say that your should play one hand in negative counts and heads up with the dealer in positive counts, and two hands with one or two other players in positive counts. If you have to play all (with wonging out), then you might need to camo your switch to two hands, sometimes playing two hands in neutral counts, and sometimes playing one hand in positive counts. Oftentimes, I cannot switch to two hands because the tables are so crowded. Also, if a place is sweaty, you might want to exercise caution. When I switch to two hands in positive counts, I limit my bet on each hand to about 75% of what I would have bet on one hand alone. So if my max bet is $250, I will bet two hands of $200; if my max bet is $100, two hands of $75.

I was reading about playing heads up with the dealer recently. It offered an interesting and counterintuitive suggestion. Rather than going to 1 hand in negative situation, if you had room with the table minimum to bet 2 hands at half your minimum bet. This allowed you to eat cards while decreasing variance and you would have the same amount at risk. This made sense.

It also suggested 1 hand heads up in positive situations which didnt make sense until he pointed out this was great cover because you were doing the opposite changes to the number of hands that surveillance are trying to correlate to card counters. I wasnt sold on that argument but could see the benefit in a sweaty game.