Questions about W-9 and CTR's

[kewljason]

I know the threshold for CTR's is 10,000 and on the few occasions that I have had monster days, I have been able to work around that. Over the weekend I cashed out below this amount but had to fill out a W-9 form. I have cashed out similar amounts before without filling one out.

I am no where near as knowledgable as I need to be on these topics and have a couple questions.

1.) What is the threshold for these W-9 forms?

2.) Is it really required by law or was the casino giving me a hard time?

3.) Other than the fact that the casino gets info that you didn't intend for them to have (which granted is a big consideration), what is so horrible about filling out w-9's or CTR's? Since I list gambling on my tax return and pay taxes, why would a fews CTR's be a problem? I can see how a large number vs small winnings could be a red flag, but I would think a couple would almost be routine.

I appreciate any help in this area. Anyone feeling this topic is too sensative for them on the public board, please PM me. thanx

 

[shadroch]

Are you sure it was a W-9?
Those are what I used to give entertainers who played my club. They are pretty much a form stating you worked and got paid X amount, but had no taxes withheld.

 

[johndoe]

Are you sure it was a W-9?
Those are what I used to give entertainers who played my club. They are pretty much a form stating you worked and got paid X amount, but had no taxes withheld.

That's a 1099. A W-9 is just a request for your SSN - does this mean they reported the win to the IRS?

Others will know better than I, but a CTR is only legally required if a daily aggregate cash transaction is $10k or more. I think the W-9 trigger is set by the casino.

 

[kewljason]

Maybe I am mistaken about the form number. It was a request for taxpayer ID number form. I thought it said W-9 in the corner.

 

[daddybo]

W9 is a request for taxpayer I.D. Number... I have no idea why they would ask you for that (well I have several, but it would be speculation). As an earlier poster said it is usually used for independent contractors. But they will fill out a W2G for some winnnings. (I forget the threshold something like $1200? - usually slots, tournaments etc.) CTRs are no big deal and are generally used by the Justice Dept to combat crimes.. although the IRS is in charge of them. (Your level of paranoia dictates whether this is a concern or not)

If you are paying taxes... no worry as far as the Gummit goes.

 

[Abenzio]

I know the threshold for CTR's is 10,000 and on the few occasions that I have had monster days, I have been able to work around that. Over the weekend I cashed out below this amount but had to fill out a W-9 form. I have cashed out similar amounts before without filling one out.

I am no where near as knowledgable as I need to be on these topics and have a couple questions.

1.) What is the threshold for these W-9 forms?

2.) Is it really required by law or was the casino giving me a hard time?

3.) Other than the fact that the casino gets info that you didn't intend for them to have (which granted is a big consideration), what is so horrible about filling out w-9's or CTR's? Since I list gambling on my tax return and pay taxes, why would a fews CTR's be a problem? I can see how a large number vs small winnings could be a red flag, but I would think a couple would almost be routine.

I appreciate any help in this area. Anyone feeling this topic is too sensative for them on the public board, please PM me. thanx

Jason,

1) There is no benchmark nor dollar amount for the use of W9. The W9 by itself is harmless, but casinos need w9 to do their jobs...

2) In your case, Form w9 info is needed by a casino to rat you out to IRS thru the filing of SARC Form 102. (suspicious gambler's activity. ie., cashing out $11,000 in chips in several times in order to evade the CTR.).


3) The IRS audit risk is increased when casinos have ratted you out to IRS thru SARC & CTR reports.

Disclaimer: I ain't no expert on the above. I just read a lot on the subject area thru the years.

 

[daddybo]

I was just going there...

The form if you think they may file it....

http://www.irs.treas.gov/pub/irs-pdf/ffc102.pdf (Archive copy)

 

[kewljason]

Jason,

1) There is no benchmark nor dollar amount for the use of W9. The W9 by itself is harmless, but casinos need w9 to do their jobs...

2) In your case, Form w9 info is needed by a casino to rat you out to IRS thru the filing of SARC Form 102. (suspicious gambler's activity. ie., cashing out $11,000 in chips in several times in order to evade the CTR.).

I only cashed out once that day and it was several thousand below the CTR amount.

Thanks for the info guys. It's something to think about.

 

[shadroch]

That's a 1099. A W-9 is just a request for your SSN - does this mean they reported the win to the IRS?

Others will know better than I, but a CTR is only legally required if a daily aggregate cash transaction is $10k or more. I think the W-9 trigger is set by the casino.

Some independant contractors get 1099s, some get W-9s. I don't know what the distinction is, my accountant does.
SARCs do not go to the IRs, they go to the Treasury and the Secret Service. If they determine no crime has been committed, I don't believe they ever get forwarded to the IRS.
At least, this is what my accountant told me several years ago.

 

[winr_winr_chicken_dinner!]

Jason, happens all the time on VP and slots, a little unusual on table though. I got a few W-2 G's this year from last year's play. Not supposed to happen on table games but it looks like it did. Just out of curiosity which property was this at? If you don't want to name it directly, just let us know the parent company. This makes me curious....

 

[chichow]

I only cashed out once that day and it was several thousand below the CTR amount.

Thanks for the info guys. It's something to think about.

Where you playing rated or unrated at the time?

 

[joerblack]

Structured Transactions

I know the threshold for CTR's is 10,000 and on the few occasions that I have had monster days, I have been able to work around that. Over the weekend I cashed out below this amount but had to fill out a W-9 form. I have cashed out similar amounts before without filling one out.

I am no where near as knowledgable as I need to be on these topics and have a couple questions.

1.) What is the threshold for these W-9 forms?

2.) Is it really required by law or was the casino giving me a hard time?

3.) Other than the fact that the casino gets info that you didn't intend for them to have (which granted is a big consideration), what is so horrible about filling out w-9's or CTR's? Since I list gambling on my tax return and pay taxes, why would a fews CTR's be a problem? I can see how a large number vs small winnings could be a red flag, but I would think a couple would almost be routine.

I appreciate any help in this area. Anyone feeling this topic is too sensative for them on the public board, please PM me. thanx

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The CTR is for $10,000 or more but if you have a series of transactions it can be issued for any amount. The W-9 was probably to get your information in case they need it if you end up having mutiple transactions that look like they are structured to avoid the CTR rules.

 

[kewljason]

Where you playing rated or unrated at the time?

I was playing unrated at the time and no winr winr, I don't want to give the name of the property. I am quite sure I have already disclosed way to much detail, but being unfamiliar with the situation and what the rules and laws are, I wanted to hear some opinions, in the hopes of being better prepared for next time.

So what I am hearing is there is no threshold for this action, nor is it required by law. It is just something the casino can decide on their own. So the next question is what if someone didn't want to give this information. Could the casino withhold payment? If it's not law and under the CTR threshold, I don't see how they can make you. In this particular case, no one actually said I wasn't getting paid unless I signed, but they did place my chips under a glass box (plastic actually), while the supervisor got the form, so it was kind of implied. Again, my primary objective here is to be better informed for the next time. Thanx

 

[bjcount]

I'm kind of surprised none of the big guns here responded to you kewlj, hopefully they did through PM.

A simple use of the form from about.com:

Form W-9 is the IRS form used by a company to request your taxpayer identification number.

I would interpet it that essentially you played unrated but on your next visit there I would expect the tap, an excuse me Mr. Kewl J, and 1 more store on your can't play list.

They now know who you are with a picture to go with it.

Personally I think you should try posting it under Taxes at GC and there have been many posts regarding the stores refusal to cash in chips or even confiscate them.

Have you entered the NGC and the appropriate attorneys names into your speed dial yet?

BJC

 

[21forme]

You have nothing to worry about re CTRs. Since you are a pro, you're declaring your gambling earnings. The only reason to be concerned about a CTR is if you were not declaring the income.

You should not have had to fill out a W-9. If you refused, you may have gotten grief from the casino, but I suspect you would have prevailed. Here's the IRS's info on the form:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw9.pdf

Here's something to consider - anyone can form a corporation (with a name giving no clue as to your real name) and get a Tax ID number. Use that name and number when these forms need to be filled out in casinos. Then, they still will have no clue as to your identity.