Questions: Table Hopping Heat/Bet fluxtuations/Coloring Out

[Burchy27]

I would like to propose a couple of examples of behavior at a Casino in regards to playing Blackjack and I would like to hear some responses on the amount of heat each behavior would bring. If different casino's act differently please be specific. But overall I'm looking for a general answer that would apply to most casino's.

1. Table hopping while only flat betting.

2. Table hopping while flat betting and leaving each table only after you are up a couple of hands.(If you started with a 1,000 bankroll while betting 100 each hand and are up to 1,200. You would then go to a new table.). Basically I want to know how much heat you would attract by hopping from table to table while taking small winnings from each table.

3. This example would be the same as example #2 except instead of table hopping right away you would waste about an hour elsewhere in the casino, say at the slots before going to your next table.(Of course playing no more then $5 at the penny machines just to waste time)

For examples #2 and #3 please describe how much heat you think would occur after X number of tables have been hopped leaving each with being about 2 hands ahead using a flat bet of 100. So leaving each table with 200 in winnings.

Please describe the above for hopping 2 tables, 3 tables, 4 tables and lastly 5 tables or more.

4. Flat betting up to the point of 2 hands ahead (200 in winnings while betting a flat rate of 100) at the start of the shoe. Then reducing your bet to the table minimum for the rest of the shoe and then repeating the process. No table hopping involved unless there are horrible players at the table that are splitting 10's constantly wasting the good cards.

In all these examples there would not be any card counting involved what-so-ever.

Other than rating how much heat for each example from a scale of 1-10 also add weather or not any of these examples could be mistaken for card counting. Ex. Table hopping might make the "eye in the sky" think that team card counting is in progress and "you" are the "big player". Or as in example #3 how you could be mistaken for a solo card counter because you are drastically changing your bet size as a solo card counter would even though its in the beginning of the shoe (No count could be possible). So please describe how likely these examples could raise suspicion of card counting.

Also would like to know if you can get banned or if it's against casino rules for table hopping or drastically reducing your bet as in the examples above.

My last question is as follows: Is at absolutely necessary to color up after a session at a table if you don't want too? Simply for the fact that announcing a color up brings the person leaving the table to the attention to the pit boss.
This is something I would like to refrain from.

These might sound like newbie questions. I am relatively new to Blackjack though I have mastered basic strategy and have done game simulations and my own statistical research on flat betting. I have done extensive amounts of internet research(browsing) on the game and surprisingly I haven't found much detail on these subjects. It just occurred to myself that I haven't searched these boards for these topics so I might have just put my foot in my mouth.

I appreciate anyone who answers my questions. Please do so only if you are knowledgeable on the topics. Please refrain from turning this thread into a Card counting vs Flat betting/progressive system war.

 

[sagefr0g]

quote: Burchy27
...leaving each table only when you are up a couple of hands. This would include playing until you get even if you happen to fall into a losing streak at the beginning of play at that table.

... No table hopping involved unless there are horrible players at the table that are splitting 10's constantly wasting the good cards.

couldn't tell you about all that heat stuff. just noticed those statements above. not sure where your comming from with that. kind of it raises a red flag maybe, maybe not on your understanding of some things.
like about streaks. so what about streaks?
horrible players. so what?
maybe i'm missing your point.

 

[Burchy27]

Lol I'll edit my post and try to use a better choice of words.

 

[cardcounter0]

1. Table hopping while only flat betting.

No one will care. If you are there at prime times, good luck on finding another seat.

2. Table hopping while flat betting and leaving each table only after you are up a couple of hands.(If you started with a 1,000 bankroll while betting 100 each hand and are up to 1,200. You would then go to a new table.). Basically I want to know how much heat you would attract by hopping from table to table while taking small winnings from each table.

$100 a hand? Expect a warm welcome and some good comps.

3. This example would be the same as example #2 except instead of table hopping right away you would waste about an hour elsewhere in the casino, say at the slots before going to your next table.(Of course playing no more then $5 at the penny machines just to waste time)

Plus playing slots? Casino hosts will be rushing up to you at the tables offering free meals and wanting to know if there is anything else they can do for you (don't reveal you only have a $1000 bankroll).

4. Flat betting up to the point of 2 hands ahead (200 in winnings while betting a flat rate of 100) at the start of the shoe. Then reducing your bet to the table minimum for the rest of the shoe and then repeating the process. No table hopping involved unless there are horrible players at the table that are splitting 10's constantly wasting the good cards.

Good plan. After getting the free dinner and show tickets, reduce your bets.
Pit boss will smile broadly after he realizes you will continue to bet a few $100 hands at the start of each shoe.

My last question is as follows: Is at absolutely necessary to color up after a session at a table if you don't want too?

No, not necessary at all. Good luck carrying around large stacks of chips around while you hop from table to table. I forsee a big spill and mad scramble in your future.

Of course, by not coloring up, you are creating more work for the pit since they will then have to refill the dealer's tray rack of the table you vacate. The floor hates doing refills. Possible you will overload the rack at the table you hop if you lose causing more problems. If you get lucky and win it back, then hop, they need to do another refill of the low denom chips. They will quickly look at you as a pain in the ass, and there requests for you to color up will become more firm.
:eyepatch:

 

[Burchy27]

Thanks for your input cardcounter0.

So what your telling me is with all my examples that the Pit Boss will want to COMP me? You are pretty much telling me even tho he might notice that I'm winning while betting at flat rate of a 100 a hand that he expects me to lose is sooner or later since I'm flat betting even if I keep switching tables.. What about in theory where I don't lose any of it and keep winning say up to 1,000 in profit for the night after jumping to 5 different tables in a relatively short period of time and the pit bosses or the "eye in the sky" notice that I'm not losing. That's what I'm worried about. Is when they notice I'm killing at the tables for whatever reason. Or at that point do they still think I'm going to eventually lose it back to the casino. For this hypothetical situation try to leave out the probabilities most know about flat betting using basic strategy where at best you break even.

With that said...Say my winning a 1,000 at the tables catches there eye and they start monitoring me. Say I leave the casino once I hit a 1,000 profit. What kind of heat can I expect the next couple of visits? Especially if they keep monitoring me and I keep on taking home considerable winnings while flat betting. Will they think I'm counting or cheating in some way? Will I be banned just because I'm a consistent winner even if I show no signs of card counting or team play.

Obviously most wont even recognize these hypothetical situations for the fact that they think its impossible to consistently win without counting cards. But if it was possible, I'm wondering if it will go unnoticed or bring down some heat. Obviously if I had a winning formula other then counting cards I would indeed take every actions to keep them thinking I'm the typical player by losing at certain times and of course making it aware to the pit boss.

Lastly people, please don't turn this into a post where you want to know what system I'm thinking of trying or start telling me there's no way to beat the house other then counting type of thread. If that where my intentions for this post I would be trying to explain my system in the Voodoo blackjack strategy section of these message boards. Think hypothetically... thanks for all who posts.

 

[EasyRhino]

It sounds like you've struck the perfect combination of wasting a bunch of time AND gambling away a bunch of money without an advantage!

 

[Burchy27]

Lol ahaha I knew I would get someone... That's what it might seem like to you.

There's a reason I won't explain it in much detail. Simply for the fact that the more people who know about it the more people who will actually do it and then of course the quicker the Casino's are going to catch on and also looking out for these types of player along with card counters. This is one of the reason's I never understood the people who wrote books about blackjack to the public. Yea your going to make a ton of money on the sales of your book but your letting out the secret to the masses who 99.999% of those people would never figure it out without prior awareness from such a book.

But I'll hint to you that most people overlook a simple component of the game which allows someone who is aware enough with the intelligence to look into it will find a very consistent strategy for winning without counting cards. And it is not a progressive system or anything of the sort. Maybe this will be saying too much but it also doesn't matter about having the advantage in the system I have researched. It merely looks at the game of blackjack for the the 50/50 game that it practically is. Yes depending on rules its a ".28% disadvantage" to the house give or take depending on which rules your playing under. But as I said it doesn't even matter if they have the advantage as long as it is very close to being a 50/50 game.

What you probably saying is you misewell just bet on the flip of a coin. The flip of a coin doesn't have a component to it that blackjack does otherwise I would.

So bring on the doubters...That's all I will hint to what I'm talking about. Because I honestly don't want you to know!

 

[GeorgeD]

Burchy:

You don't have to worry about hear, You have to worry about if your system works. I understand you don't want to reveal it, but have you properly simmed it to see if it works?. Most systems explained by books not recommended on this forum have been exposed as weak or downright frauds. Do you raally think you have come up with better system than a guy like Ken Uston? His ideas have persisted and made people money for about 50 years. If you atke a win on table 1 and take those winnings ti table 2 immediately or an hour later, it;'s just "lock in your wins" proven with sims not to work. The odds are you will eventually lose that and more

If you dont' want to expose it here for all to see then PM someone like Zeingrifter or automonkey and ask their opinion. If they say it has +EV and is easy toi mplement, I will pay $100 to teach me the system

Lol ahaha I knew I would get someone... That's what it might seem like to you.

There's a reason I won't explain it in much detail. Simply for the fact that the more people who know about it the more people who will actually do it and then of course the quicker the Casino's are going to catch on and also looking out for these types of player along with card counters. This is one of the reason's I never understood the people who wrote books about blackjack to the public. Yea your going to make a ton of money on the sales of your book but your letting out the secret to the masses who 99.999% of those people would never figure it out without prior awareness from such a book.

But I'll hint to you that most people overlook a simple component of the game which allows someone who is aware enough with the intelligence to look into it will find a very consistent strategy for winning without counting cards. And it is not a progressive system or anything of the sort. Maybe this will be saying too much but it also doesn't matter about having the advantage in the system I have researched. It merely looks at the game of blackjack for the the 50/50 game that it practically is. Yes depending on rules its a ".28% disadvantage" to the house give or take depending on which rules your playing under. But as I said it doesn't even matter if they have the advantage as long as it is very close to being a 50/50 game.

What you probably saying is you misewell just bet on the flip of a coin. The flip of a coin doesn't have a component to it that blackjack does otherwise I would.

So bring on the doubters...That's all I will hint to what I'm talking about. Because I honestly don't want you to know!

 

[Kasi]

4. Flat betting up to the point of 2 hands ahead (200 in winnings while betting a flat rate of 100) at the start of the shoe.

Do this one. That way you don't take the risk of, as chance would have it, hopping in on 10 tables in a row when the count happened to be great. They'll never catch on so why bother with the other stuff?

Forget about reducing bet - why give them a reason to suspect something?
And that sissy slot stuff - give me a break. Way, way too obvious like a high-roller you would bother with that crap. If you must at least play the $25 slots. That'll buy you a ton of time. Did you say something about waiting a week to come back? Time is money. Hit em hard every day. You'll be rich before they know what hit them.

Worst case, you're up a few hundred thou after a while, they surrender and kick you out even though they can't figure it out, maybe let you play the slots if they're nice, but, you know, the stockholders can only take so much hit to the bottom line, (don't forget to sell their stock short before you start - it'll be a nice pay day with leveraged money) and you have to do it all over again somewhere else. Or, what the heck, maybe that would be the time to write the book and make a ton of money since you can't play anymore anyway. Or maybe pay somebody $15/hr to just apply the system (call me - I'll sign a confidentialty agreement too) and you accept a smaller win rate. Heck, with that $300K, pay 300 people with a $1K roll.

Maybe even, after the first $1K in winnings, why not flat-bet $200/hand?
Your next thou will take half the time and then you can switch to $300/hand. Just a possibility.

You'll be putting the heat on them, not vice -versa.

Make em sweat.

 

[Burchy27]

Burchy:

You don't have to worry about hear, You have to worry about if your system works. I understand you don't want to reveal it, but have you properly simmed it to see if it works?. Most systems explained by books not recommended on this forum have been exposed as weak or downright frauds. Do you raally think you have come up with better system than a guy like Ken Uston? His ideas have persisted and made people money for about 50 years. If you atke a win on table 1 and take those winnings ti table 2 immediately or an hour later, it;'s just "lock in your wins" proven with sims not to work. The odds are you will eventually lose that and more

If you dont' want to expose it here for all to see then PM someone like Zeingrifter or automonkey and ask their opinion. If they say it has +EV and is easy toi mplement, I will pay $100 to teach me the system

Well first of all I can't say ive invented a new system. But I did stumble upon the theory on my own and have tested it. Im sure theres tons of people who have done the same.

For how you just told me that ill eventually lose it all and more. Well yea with those examples that I told you because i left out the whole real strategy that I don't feel like mentioning.

As for the Ken Uston comment. What makes him special? Because he learned something and told everyone else and knows how to market his name? Don't you understand that we are an evolving species and that generations that come after Ken Uston could have the ability to stumble upon another strategy at blackjack that also works along with card counting.

Example: Einstien developed relativty for our world in the earth's atompshere. Relativity couldn't be used to explain certain things in the universe so we figured out quantum mechanics.

The point is Einstein might be the most famous but that doesnt mean nothing greater can come after him. The same applies for Ken Uston. I say this with all due respect.

Also why would I want to teach you the system for 100? When I could make more using it myself. The only people I plan on explaining what I have found out is two of my close friends who are up for monthly trips to Vegas to make some profits.

And believe me if I charged you 100 dollars to explain it to you, you would probally kick yourself in the head for giving me the 100 when you could have easily figured it out for yourself.

Like I said i personally found the system out without any knowledge of it existing. I know people have already became aware of it before me.

Im pretty sure sooner or later someone will write a book about it and make it availible to the masses. If it does happen I think I could predict that the game of blackjack would no longer exist in casino's. Because along with card counting and this system I am referring to which is much more easier, casinos would lose tons of money if this system ever became as popular as card counting. Also casino's would start banning these players or creating rules that would kill the game of blackjack.

So with that said...I'm not going to continue to debate about this, I've already said too much. If you really want to figure it out...really study the game...its rather simple you can figure out the same that I did. It isn't a progressive system and doesn't involve counting though you probably could also count and when the count was high at any time stray from the system and bet high but that would just create the heat that counting gets. Don't need the heat. The system does have a slight risk involved but only if you have a bankroll that cannot compensate for the amounts that you are betting.

 

[Burchy27]

Do this one. That way you don't take the risk of, as chance would have it, hopping in on 10 tables in a row when the count happened to be great. They'll never catch on so why bother with the other stuff?

Forget about reducing bet - why give them a reason to suspect something?
And that sissy slot stuff - give me a break. Way, way too obvious like a high-roller you would bother with that crap. If you must at least play the $25 slots. That'll buy you a ton of time. Did you say something about waiting a week to come back? Time is money. Hit em hard every day. You'll be rich before they know what hit them.

Worst case, you're up a few hundred thou after a while, they surrender and kick you out even though they can't figure it out, maybe let you play the slots if they're nice, but, you know, the stockholders can only take so much hit to the bottom line, (don't forget to sell their stock short before you start - it'll be a nice pay day with leveraged money) and you have to do it all over again somewhere else. Or, what the heck, maybe that would be the time to write the book and make a ton of money since you can't play anymore anyway. Or maybe pay somebody $15/hr to just apply the system (call me - I'll sign a confidentialty agreement too) and you accept a smaller win rate. Heck, with that $300K, pay 300 people with a $1K roll.

Maybe even, after the first $1K in winnings, why not flat-bet $200/hand?
Your next thou will take half the time and then you can switch to $300/hand. Just a possibility.

You'll be putting the heat on them, not vice -versa.

Make em sweat.

Ahaha aww man...good post lmao. Well I used those examples for when I play at the local casino nearby. I have a strategy for casino hopping in vegas where I will never have to worry about heat and will be making more profit and having a higher bankroll and probably betting more...though I would prolly never bet more then 200 a hand just so I can make as many frequent trips to each casino without them ever raising any amount of suspicion.

O and by the way TIME IS MONEY but dude I'm not that greedy. I don't need to make a million a year off of blackjack. If anything I plan on making a trip each month to Vegas and making anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 a year off blackjack. But of course im just talking ****. Id never be able to do this because it isn't possible ::wink wink:: thats for the lil piggy spies that might roam the internet one day.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

If it was so simple and a moneymaker, with as much as this game has been studied someone would have caught onto it.

This joker needs to be banished to the voodoo forum.

 

[sagefr0g]

If it was so simple and a moneymaker, with as much as this game has been studied someone would have caught onto it.

This joker needs to be banished to the voodoo forum.

in the voodoo forum with moi? thanks a heap Blue. :joker::whip:

 

[Burchy27]

Do you read, there are people who know about it. I just found a video on the internet of an Asian gentlemen who after in the video told the truths about card counting, explained how he is working on the same theory as I am referring too. It was kind of ironic because he gave it the same name as I did. Anyone who ever finds it out would and could only call it this name.

O and this thread doesn't need to be banished to the Voodoo room. I'm not proposing a silly strategy. I'm not even bringing it to the foregrounds. But it has been eluded too because of the knowledge I wanted to learn about pit bosses and the eye in the sky so I know how often and much I should use this strategy without the casino following my playing patterns. But hopefully everyone who owns a casino is as unaware or the strategy as everyone else seems to be up to this point in time that they will simple think its a flat bet player getting really lucky. That's exactly what I want!

 

[Kasi]

Ahaha aww man...good post lmao. QUOTE]

Yeah I was just having fun lol. Thank God you realized that lmao.

Good luck. I do fear you might need it.

A 10 unit roll ain't much! If you get to where you have no roll to double or split, you're really gonna need some luck. No way, my guess, need you worry about heat.

If anything, if you insist on this flat-betting stuff, and since you're not greedy lol, I'd even consider lowering unit so if you do win $1k, play $50 with a 40 unit roll. Hell, play a $10 unit with 2000 units. Room to really do the voodoo u do so well. Voodoo needs units. Just my opinion lol.

 

[Burchy27]

lol Yes. My bankroll would not be 10 units small. That would be stupid.

 

[SystemsTrader]

But I'll hint to you that most people overlook a simple component of the game which allows someone who is aware enough with the intelligence to look into it will find a very consistent strategy for winning without counting cards. Maybe this will be saying too much but it also doesn't matter about having the advantage in the system I have researched. It merely looks at the game of blackjack for the the 50/50 game that it practically is. I said it doesn't even matter if they have the advantage as long as it is very close to being a 50/50 game.

What you probably saying is you misewell just bet on the flip of a coin. The flip of a coin doesn't have a component to it that blackjack does otherwise I would.

So bring on the doubters...That's all I will hint to what I'm talking about. Because I honestly don't want you to know!

I'm a doubter simply because you don't realise that blackjack is not a 50/50 game. You will only win 42% of your hands in blackjack. The reason for this is because you must play your hand first and if you bust then the dealer busts he still wins the hand. The reason we card counters can win money over this disadvantage is because we have the ability to increase our bets when the deck is rich in high cards to take advantage of double downs and 3/2 blackjacks.

 

[EasyRhino]

To answer the original question less sarcastically, I don't think table hopping that much would cause any heat. It might cause some annoyance on the part of the pit bosses trying to keep up with you and dealers reshuffling. You'd become know as "that table hopping guy", but it wouldn't really matter.

It partially reminds of a tactic mentioned in Ian Anderson's Burning the Tables in Las Vegas, where a high roller would place huge bets at the top of a shoe, flat bet, and leave any time the count got to -1, but ride it out if the count went positive. This would result in a small advantage, and it was virtually heatless. But the risk of ruin was TITANIC, because the edge was so small and the variance was so large.

As for your system, have you done analysis on it WITH MATH, and/or simulation of it WITH A COMPUTER? Merely from the style of prose you use to describe it, it sounds like a non-winner.

 

[sagefr0g]

a great conspiracy theory

.....
It partially reminds of a tactic mentioned in Ian Anderson's Burning the Tables in Las Vegas, where a high roller would place huge bets at the top of a shoe, flat bet, and leave any time the count got to -1, but ride it out if the count went positive. This would result in a small advantage, and it was virtually heatless. But the risk of ruin was TITANIC, because the edge was so small and the variance was so large.
....

wow Easy i'm glad you posted that. since it's a new one on me. i recall a while back bojack stating that there is a way to get an advantage even at times in negative counts. (my poorly reconstructed depiction of his words and meaning not his ) he never did elaborate on the scenerio. i think it was over in advanced strategies forum. most everyone as i recall concluded his statement had to do with shuffle tracking and the thread died. it seemed funny to me that he never affirmed that ST was what he was talking about and failed to elaborate further. so i always sort of wondered if there was maybe something more to what he was saying than ST.
so but i doubt if this tactic mentioned by Anderson is the same thing.
makes for a great conspiracy theory though. lmao.
probably maybe oughta move this thread to the zenzone. :laugh:
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=19969&postcount=15

 

[cardcounter0]

old trick for hiding your true spread a single deck. Bet 2x your min bet the first hand. Then drop down if count goes neg, let it ride or increase if the count goes positive. Might make your spread look 1/2 what it is if they pit is noting your bet after the shuffle and then spotting your max bet. Not very expensive considering off-the-top SD house edge in the .28% neighborhood.