Ramp

[Krainn]

Hey all, back again with another question

I'm 17 and understandably have a small bankroll (about 1200 and I'm not playing for real until it's about 2500). That being said, my unit is $5 and my spread is 1-12. My current betting ramp is +1=10, +2=25, +3=40, +4=55, +5 and above=60. I feel bad asking because I could technically pay for CVCX and find out for myself but like I said I'm still a youngin and have a limited source of income. I came across this ramp while googling one day, but I was wondering if anyone off the top of his head could recognize this as being a fairly good betting ramp just to verify my findings and put my mind at ease. Thank you!

 

[Taff]

How many decks are you playing.?? what sort of Penetration and are you playing head to head with dealer or crowded tables.?? Also is your method of play wong in/out or play all.??

 

[filippo]

Since I am pretty much in his situation I think it may be useful if I ask this question here.
For people like us (young with limited resources) instead of betting lets say 60$ in one spot, is it better to divide those sixty in three different spot on which you bet 20 each? The risk is lower this way isn't it? and the EV remains constant or does it lower too?

 

[Taff]

Ev will lower drastically. Many on here with better maths brains than I could tell you by exactly how much. If you're playing head to head with the dealer then play your max bet on one spot. If you're playing with one or more player you can play 2 spots of 40. You get the extra E.V on the extra money on the table. Variance may increase a bit but with no risk to bankroll.

 

[Krainn]

How many decks are you playing.?? what sort of Penetration and are you playing head to head with dealer or crowded tables.?? Also is your method of play wong in/out or play all.??

6 Decks, 75% penetration, Maybe with 1 other person at the table. Wong out lower than -1.

 

[Taff]

6 Decks, 75% penetration, Maybe with 1 other person at the table. Wong out lower than -1.

Ok. Bet ramps like pretty much everything else are personal to the individual. The one you've quoted looks totally wrong and ramps too early. I wouldn't want to have 5 units out at +2. Maybe more like this.:

+1: 1 unit
+2 3 unit
+3: 6 unit
+4: 8 unit
+5 and above 2x 6/7/8 unit.

I included the extra units at +5 because with only 75% pen and play all I don't think a 1-12 spread will earn you a great deal. You also need to consider risk of ruin if you're planning on playing with saved money of 500 units. This would give you a rough chance of tapping out 1 in 10 times or 10% R.O.R. Why not just put aside money for a session and see if you can string a series of winning sessions together and build bankroll that way.??

 

[Krainn]

Ok. Bet ramps like pretty much everything else are personal to the individual. The one you've quoted looks totally wrong and ramps too early. I wouldn't want to have 5 units out at +2. Maybe more like this.:

+1: 1 unit
+2 3 unit
+3: 6 unit
+4: 8 unit
+5 and above 2x 6/7/8 unit.

I included the extra units at +5 because with only 75% pen and play all I don't think a 1-12 spread will earn you a great deal. You also need to consider risk of ruin if you're planning on playing with saved money of 500 units. This would give you a rough chance of tapping out 1 in 10 times or 10% R.O.R. Why not just put aside money for a session and see if you can string a series of winning sessions together and build bankroll that way.??

Thank you very much for the time & replies. I will utilize what you've given me!

 

[Krainn]

Ok. Bet ramps like pretty much everything else are personal to the individual. The one you've quoted looks totally wrong and ramps too early. I wouldn't want to have 5 units out at +2. Maybe more like this.:

+1: 1 unit
+2 3 unit
+3: 6 unit
+4: 8 unit
+5 and above 2x 6/7/8 unit.

I included the extra units at +5 because with only 75% pen and play all I don't think a 1-12 spread will earn you a great deal. You also need to consider risk of ruin if you're planning on playing with saved money of 500 units. This would give you a rough chance of tapping out 1 in 10 times or 10% R.O.R. Why not just put aside money for a session and see if you can string a series of winning sessions together and build bankroll that way.??

Sorry to reopen this but I actually just downloaded the software and thought it might be worth mentioning this.

I remember seeing on a different thread that an active member said that a max bet should be out on the table by TC +4. This is quite contrary to what you said. Anywho, when I plugged in my parameters into CVCX (HILO, I18, F4, S17 DAS SR, Wong out lower than -1, 75% pen) It verified what the other person said. Keep in mind that this is probably the most opened Sim that CVCX has, as it is the one that comes with the program. It shows me having my highest bet out at TC +4. Thoughts, Taff?

 

[Taff]

I remember seeing on a different thread that an active member said that a max bet should be out on the table by TC +4.

Yep. And two books in my collection say exactly the same. It tends to be the industry standard if you like. Now ask several experienced pros if their ramps include raising up to their max bets at +5 or +6 and splitting to two hands at that level and you'll find a fair amount who do. Again it's about personal preference. Just off the top of my head D.Schles quotes in BJA ch1 that his max bet was out at +5 over 2 hands.

 

[Krainn]

Gotcha, good to see another perspective. Thank you.

 

[stopgambling]

if you are wonging out at tc -1 after the first deck , i do not see a problem for putting your max bet at tc5 instead of tc4 since you are not playing all. Playing with small bankroll you need to wong in/out much more aggressively . it is usually fine with a small max bets but it is not universal . Also why would you want to make such an odd bet ramp. ? I would use 20, 40 ,50 ,60 starting at true 2. You want quick pay out to speed up game usually. still too risky? wong in at true 2 with $20 or 2 x $15 . unless you can play for many hours in the tune of 1000 hours plus you will not be able to build a decent bankroll . It can be for fun and a learning experience though.

 

[KewlJ]

Just a word of caution about spreading to two hands. Here in Vegas, spreading to two hands has become huge as far as drawing heat. You can play a fairly large spread (single hand) and draw much less attention than spreading to two hands with a much smaller spread. At double deck games, spreading to two hands will quickly get you a backoff or baring.

I would say spreading to two hands has become perhaps the biggest "tell" that pit looks for. For me, a professional player with focus and priority on longevity, spreading to two hands has become as toxic as splitting tens. The risk just far outweighs the value and I have eliminated it from my game. If I was hell bent on playing two hands during positive EV situations, I would "reverse spread" and start off with two hands and drop to one hand when it looks like the count will not go positive (or significantly positive) before the shuffle. Then at the shuffle revert back to two. BUT, just like showing my spread, I would only do this once or twice per session before moving on. But that's just me. I am all about longevity. I shear rather than slaughter.

 

[Taff]

Here in Vegas, spreading to two hands has become huge as far as drawing heat. You can play a fairly large spread (single hand) and draw much less attention than spreading to two hands with a much smaller sprea

As your approach to heat and longevity is well documented here and elsewhere this is sound advice. I moved to playing 2 hands early last year as I wanted to increase my spread and didn't want to mix chip colours or have a chip mountain in front of me. Whilst I've had no problems whatsoever I do feel a touch 'exposed' when doing so. As I'm flying out to your neck of the woods later this year (and handing my credit card over to the wife) I will certainly bear what you say in mind.

 

[Meistro]

"I'm 17 and understandably have a small bankroll (about 1200 and I'm not playing for real until it's about 2500). That being said, my unit is $5 and my spread is 1-12. My current betting ramp is +1=10, +2=25, +3=40, +4=55, +5 and above=60."

This is too much for a 2500 bank, especially one that is relatively non replenishable. Here is what you should do :

back count and wong out aggressively. So you don't just sit down and play, you just watch the table until the true count is +1. Then you join for a minimum bet. Your max bet is $25. This is a conservative approach but it is important for you to not play too aggressively especially while you are learning because chances are as a noob you will be making some mistakes, so you would rather make them for less money. If fortune favours you and / or you work hard at your job you can increase it eventually. So do something like :

TC 1 $5
Tc 2 $10
TC 3 $15
TC 4 $20
TC 5 $25
TC 6+ $25

If the true count dips to 0 or below then you either leave the table or wong in place; stay there and keep counting but don't play.

Best of luck kid.

 

[Meistro]

"For people like us (young with limited resources) instead of betting lets say 60$ in one spot, is it better to divide those sixty in three different spot on which you bet 20 each? The risk is lower this way isn't it? and the EV remains constant or does it lower too?"

EV = action * edge.

So 3 x 20 and 1 x 60 are the same action and of course your edge is the same in these two scenarios as well so yes, your EV remains constant and risk is lessened by splitting $60 into three spots of $20.

 

[Taff]

So 3 x 20 and 1 x 60 are the same action and of course your edge is the same in these two scenarios as well so yes, your EV remains constant and risk is lessened by splitting $60 into three spots of $20.

But the poster has not raised max bet, just spread it over 3 hands. Card eating in positive situations lowers E.V surely.

 

[Meistro]

"But the poster has not raised max bet, just spread it over 3 hands. Card eating in positive situations lowers E.V surely."

Maybe over the course of the rest of the shoe, but in the time frame of one round the EV of 3 x 20 is the same as 1 x 60.

In general I would say it does not really matter if you play one hand or two. I generally prefer to play two hands, even heads up and definitely prefer to play two hands at a full table, although I try to play alone whenever possible.

 

[Krainn]

Two things ...

"For people like us (young with limited resources) instead of betting lets say 60$ in one spot, is it better to divide those sixty in three different spot on which you bet 20 each? The risk is lower this way isn't it? and the EV remains constant or does it lower too?"

EV = action * edge.

So 3 x 20 and 1 x 60 are the same action and of course your edge is the same in these two scenarios as well so yes, your EV remains constant and risk is lessened by splitting $60 into three spots of $20.

First thing is here. I know I am asking the question so I shouldn't be giving criticisms but I just wanted to point this out. Also, I don't know and cannot explain how but I do know that playing 3 x 20 instead of 1 x 60 has a much lower EV. By the same token, playing 2 x 30 also has a lower EV than 1 x 60.

....

"I'm 17 and understandably have a small bankroll (about 1200 and I'm not playing for real until it's about 2500). That being said, my unit is $5 and my spread is 1-12. My current betting ramp is +1=10, +2=25, +3=40, +4=55, +5 and above=60."

This is too much for a 2500 bank, especially one that is relatively non replenishable. Here is what you should do :

back count and wong out aggressively. So you don't just sit down and play, you just watch the table until the true count is +1. Then you join for a minimum bet. Your max bet is $25. This is a conservative approach but it is important for you to not play too aggressively especially while you are learning because chances are as a noob you will be making some mistakes, so you would rather make them for less money. If fortune favours you and / or you work hard at your job you can increase it eventually. So do something like :

TC 1 $5
Tc 2 $10
TC 3 $15
TC 4 $20
TC 5 $25
TC 6+ $25

If the true count dips to 0 or below then you either leave the table or wong in place; stay there and keep counting but don't play.

Best of luck kid.

Other thing here. I'm just ballparking it here , but this bet spread and ramp might net me 4-5 bucks of EV. I'd rather risk a little more. As a matter of fact, the tides have turned, and I now have about 2700, and my RoR is under 30. I know this is still rediculously high, but it's pretty pleasant compared to my previous 56 percent RoR. Hopefully Lady Luck smiles on me and I hit a positive variance spike. I'm going to begin gambling within the next few months so I'll create a log and keep y'all apprised for anyone interested in the results of a wee 17 year old lad.

 

[Meistro]

sounds like you have it all figured out, good luck

 

[gronbog]

Also, I don't know and cannot explain how but I do know that playing 3 x 20 instead of 1 x 60 has a much lower EV. By the same token, playing 2 x 30 also has a lower EV than 1 x 60.

This is incorrect. EV is additive. They have the same EV. Due to covariance however, there is less risk when spreading the same amount to multiple spots.