# Research on Spanish 21?

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
Automatic Monkey said:
Slightly related question- do you know of any source for playing indices for Spanish 21? I'm willing to use either {-1,0,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,-1} or {-2,1,2,2,2,1,0,0,0,-2}, no real preference.
I'm sorry I don't, but if you post the rules for me that you're interested in, I can post the TD/TC strategies and EORs that I get...

#### Automatic Monkey

##### Banned
MGP said:
I'm sorry I don't, but if you post the rules for me that you're interested in, I can post the TD/TC strategies and EORs that I get...
Thanks I'm interested in playing the S17, no redouble rules. I've calculated the EOR's by elimination-and-simulation and they are much like those for the regular game, with the exception of the 7 being close to a neutral card, presumably because of the 7-7-7 and 6-7-8 bonuses.

Calculating the indices is a confounding task due to the powerful player-wins push-21 rule. I'm also especially interested in late surrender indices. There is multi-card surrender which seems like it would be a good rule, however the only BS surrender play is 17 vs. A which makes multi-card surrender not very useful, without playing indices.

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
Ok - so when I give EOR's I'm simply giving the Net EV with a card removed - Net EV without the card removed. I'm not dividing by anything. I used the rules you gave with surrender and since the Wizard's site says you can double and hit after split aces I included that.

The net EV I get with a 2C strategy (with the exception I mentioned before that all post-double strategies are based on the CD pre-split double strategy) is -0.381818937026703%

The strategy is pretty much the same as the Wizard's except that all 2 hand cards are played CD and all 3-or-more card hands are played with a TD strategy. I.e. 4/5/6 card hand exceptions are ignored. If you used a fully CD strategy you would only improve to an EV of -0.373529465859687%.

Here are the EOR's I'm getting:
Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
0.05%	0.07%	0.1%	0.12%	0.07%	0.01%	-0.03%	-0.02%	-0.06%	-0.16%``````
The Original EV of Standing for H17 using a TD strategy is -0.514 vs R EV -0.5. For the below values I used the TD rather than the 2C because I didn't feel like doing each analysis twice (once for each 2 card hand) and I spot checked a few EOR values for comparison for the individual hands and they were pretty much the same.

The EOR's for the worsening of hitting relative to surrender are (i.e. negative values mean the value of hitting improved by the amount below):

Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
0.003	0.004	0.006	-0.002	-0.001	-0.002	-0.002	-0.003	-0.002	0.002``````
Note that for all situations it is better to hit with a 3 or more card 17 (2 cards are being surrendered), except with a 4 removed in which case it is better to stand with a 3 or more card 17.

Here are the EOR's for Surrender relative to hitting for 16 vs 10 (Original EV -0.473135636338347) (in this case negative values mean the EV of hitting has decreased)

Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
-0.002	-0.003	-0.004	-0.006	0.002	0.001	0.002	0.002	0.003	-0.001``````
And the EOR's for Surrender relative to hitting for 16 vs A (Original EV -0.471855115523446) (again negative values mean the EV of hitting has decreased)

Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
-0.002	-0.003	-0.006	-0.005	0.001	0.002	0.003	0.004	0.002	0``````

All these values were obtained with my CA in about 15 minutes and should be exact.

Good Luck

#### Knox

##### Well-Known Member
Anyone know where I can find some info on the 3-card poker game attached to some blackjack tables? Is it beatable with card tracking? I know it is a real loser for the player straight up (without counting).

#### mdlbj

##### Well-Known Member
I cleaned house on Spanish 21.. You know you can hit on every hand..

##### New Member
Great change of pace

One morning while waiting for my fav. dealer to finish shuffling and open the BJ table, I ask the dealer next to me about Spanish 21. After doing so-so, I went to the Spanish 21 table and once you get the hang of it, you can't beat the fun, the moves you'd never make on a regular table.
I disagree with the "match the dealer" spot on the table. OK it pays 3-1, if one of your two cards, match the dealers up card. Another words you have a seven clubs, dealer has seven diamonds, that's your three to one. Then there is the same match the dealer, which pays 12-1, you hae to match the dealers up card and suit. Now there are some crazy pay out and I deeply encourage you to read the felt in front of you. A 5 card 21 pays 3-1, 6 card 21 is a payout of 4-1.
You also have not only the surrender option, but the resue also, doubling at anytime and spitting all you'd like.
There is a huge paying bet which from every casino in AC, has only been made a couple of times is having a natural 21 with 3 sevens of the same suit, that is a straight 25,000 pay off and 1,000 envy pay out for the rest of us. Not bad, for a fluke hand.
I really don't use the match the dealer option much. I suggest you use it everytime or no time, because these tables are much more community based. Everyone will point out if you had only thrown 5 bucks down, you'd have 60 now...well duh, thanks for the reminder. I hate little shit like that, I could careless if the guuy next to me splits 10's or whatever.
If you get into it, it is funny getting through the first few hands of reg BJ, or maybe it's the drinks you've had!

#### Automatic Monkey

##### Banned
MGP said:
Ok - so when I give EOR's I'm simply giving the Net EV with a card removed - Net EV without the card removed. I'm not dividing by anything. I used the rules you gave with surrender and since the Wizard's site says you can double and hit after split aces I included that.

The net EV I get with a 2C strategy (with the exception I mentioned before that all post-double strategies are based on the CD pre-split double strategy) is -0.381818937026703%

The strategy is pretty much the same as the Wizard's except that all 2 hand cards are played CD and all 3-or-more card hands are played with a TD strategy. I.e. 4/5/6 card hand exceptions are ignored. If you used a fully CD strategy you would only improve to an EV of -0.373529465859687%.

Here are the EOR's I'm getting:
Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
0.05%	0.07%	0.1%	0.12%	0.07%	0.01%	-0.03%	-0.02%	-0.06%	-0.16%``````
The Original EV of Standing for H17 using a TD strategy is -0.514 vs R EV -0.5. For the below values I used the TD rather than the 2C because I didn't feel like doing each analysis twice (once for each 2 card hand) and I spot checked a few EOR values for comparison for the individual hands and they were pretty much the same.

The EOR's for the worsening of hitting relative to surrender are (i.e. negative values mean the value of hitting improved by the amount below):

Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
0.003	0.004	0.006	-0.002	-0.001	-0.002	-0.002	-0.003	-0.002	0.002``````
Note that for all situations it is better to hit with a 3 or more card 17 (2 cards are being surrendered), except with a 4 removed in which case it is better to stand with a 3 or more card 17.

Here are the EOR's for Surrender relative to hitting for 16 vs 10 (Original EV -0.473135636338347) (in this case negative values mean the EV of hitting has decreased)

Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
-0.002	-0.003	-0.004	-0.006	0.002	0.001	0.002	0.002	0.003	-0.001``````
And the EOR's for Surrender relative to hitting for 16 vs A (Original EV -0.471855115523446) (again negative values mean the EV of hitting has decreased)

Code:
``````2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	T	A
-0.002	-0.003	-0.006	-0.005	0.001	0.002	0.003	0.004	0.002	0``````

All these values were obtained with my CA in about 15 minutes and should be exact.

Good Luck

No way, can't be right. The EOR's for the 8 and A are too high. I'm at work so I don't have my sims right now, but the EOR of the A is about 40% higher than the 10, the 9 is low and the 8 is positive but miniscule. The 7 is a neutral card. The EOR's for the low cards look OK.

##### New Member
LOOKING FOR A FREE spanish 21 AND BJ

DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A GOOD SITE TO PLAY SPANISH 21 FOR FREE?
ALSO IF THERE IS A BJ GAME THAT HAS A CHAT FEATURE AND BE ABLE TO CREAT YOUR OWN TABLE AND INVITE WHOM YOU'D LIKE.
I HAVE A BADLY BROKEN LEG AND AM STUCK HOME, ONE MORE SURGERY TO GO (BUT THOSE OARE ODDS I WOULDN'T BET ON!) :cry: SO I HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON MY HANDS, PLAYING FREE WOULD HELP THE WALLET AND STILL HAVE FUN
SOMETHING SIMULAR TO POKER STARS. THANK YOU FOR ANY INFO.

#### MGP

##### Well-Known Member
Automatic Monkey said:
No way, can't be right. The EOR's for the 8 and A are too high. I'm at work so I don't have my sims right now, but the EOR of the A is about 40% higher than the 10, the 9 is low and the 8 is positive but miniscule. The 7 is a neutral card. The EOR's for the low cards look OK.
EOR 8 clubs:

Original EV: -0.381818937026703%
New 2C EV: -0.414929132714526%

So the difference is -0.03%

Same type of analysis with the other EORs.