RFID vs. Mindplay

[Mr. V]

Mindplay uses digital cameras to read markings in invisible ink on the
casino's cards in order to, inter alia, accurately determine what the
count is.

If the count favors the player, the dealer is notified, and then
shuffles up, eliminating the advantage to player.

The cameras also are somehow able to monitor betting.

An interesting technology, but cumbersome and hideously expensive.

RFID in contrast would seem cheaper and simpler: this will certainly be
true as this fairly new technology evolves, and as economies of scale
come into play.

When RFID miniaturization and implementation reach the point that a
passive RFID chip can be inserted in each playing card, that will (or
probably should) seal the doom of Mindplay, as it would then be
possible to track the cards via RFID, track the player's computer chips
via embedded RFID chips, and obviate the need for Mindplay (and its
fourteen or so digital cameras).

This could well become The Final (and automatic, computer monitored)
Solution to the Card Counting Problem.

 

[Mayor]

RFID is the future...

...no question about it. Though something even smaller and easier may take its place, the idea that each manufactured thing on the planet can identify itself and its location instantly is certainly in our future. These things will be on every soft drink, ever condom, and every ballot in the not too distant future. If ever there was cause for privacy concerns (think Supreme Court here), the development of RFID for gaming purposes should give pause. The sanctity of individual privacy is very definitely at risk in casinos.

 

[Sun runner]

Each 'manufactured' thing?

Would that it stopped there.

Not getting a fair game of Blackjack will be the least of your concerns.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

RFID will be easier for us to exploit

Mindplay is a proprietary system, RFID technology is available to all. Think of the implications if we can walk around with RFID readers. Just imagine being able to walk by a table and know what the count of a shoe is.

 

[stainless steel rat]

there are other technology approaches as well.

For example, we really only need to recognize 13 different "things" in the deck, assuming suits are not important. "Hall effect" transistors come to mind, as it would not be difficult to have a magnetic stripe on a card, that does not contain any digital data, just produces a magnetic field. A hall-effect transistor amplifies based on the strength of the field. So the weakest magnetic stripe could be a "2", etc... There are other things that can be done with radioactive isotopes, tuning coils, etc. If all we want to do is determine whether a card is 2-10, J, Q, K or A.

However, a casino using this to shuffle away + counts must be illegal since they are intentionally altering the game outcome in their favor...

 

[Greasy John]

Things to do list...

Next time I'm in Vegas, if I need a break or feel the urge, I should go to Hard Rock to see if the RFID table has telltale physical differences from non-RFID tables. I might have to ask them to turn up the house lights--it's dark in there.

 

[zengrifter]

YES, it is predictable that eventually people...

... will be RFID'd... at birth. zg

 

[zengrifter]

A limited Nevada ruling held...

... that selctive count-related shuffling was NOT illegal. According to Bill Bible "If card-counting is not illegal and palyers can do it, so can the house." zg

 

[kbp]

What next......

"If standing on hard 16 is not illegal and players can do it, so can the house."

Strategy variations will be especially useful to the house since they know all the players FINAL hand totals (or busts) before making hit/stand decisions. Geez, the logic.....

 

[Sun runner]

Good enough

> If card-counting is not illegal and players can do it, so can the house.

If they can find enough dealers good enough to count properly while controlling their game, making payoffs, changing C-notes .. then let them shuffle-up early; maybe their ploppies and civilians will stand for it, maybe they won't.

I'll take my chances.

But they should NOT be allowed any outside computer aided device or otherwise.

Hell, why don't they just put a spotter and monitor for every table in the back somewhere, give the dealer an ear piece, and just shuffle up everytime the count goes to +2? It's ridiculous logic to even entertain the thought of these devices!?!

BTW, Automatic Monkey, what makes you think an RFID reader used by you or me will be any less illegal than a Casey?

I'm telling you, Mindplay, RFID, etc is a one way street and we are going the wrong way. None of it should be tolerated.

 

[the_heater]

Devices

Obviously the house can use devices to monitor the outcomes of the game. Heck, they are required to use video cameras to monitor the games. And the counter can count cards to alter his odds in playing the game, but he may NOT use any device to assist in counting the cards (unless the house provides such device as in baccarat). And the house can alter the odds of the game by dealer PS. But if the house can use DEVICES to alter the odds of the game, then the public needs to be aware that not only do the rules of the games favor the house edge, additionally the house can use a device to further RIG the outcomes of the games. That is that the house is allowed to cheat and rig any and all of the games, and the NGC is OK with this if they allow Mindplay and similar systems.

 

[Titaniumman]

Misconception

Just imagine being able to walk by a table and know what the count of a shoe is.

RFID is not going to enable a player to do this.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Using RFID on our own

"BTW, Automatic Monkey, what makes you think an RFID reader used by you or me will be any less illegal than a Casey?"

It probably wouldn't be, just a lot more useful and easy to get away with. The biggest reason for not using a Casey is that it I don't need a computer to count cards. Of course it all depends on how the RFID is used, but if it's used to benefit the casino, there is probably some way we can use it to benefit ourselves.

 

[Victoria]

It would make an interesting legal case

If arrested for using a device which the casinos also use. Interesting but I do not think I will volunteer.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

There may be some overriding Federal law

There is a law permitting anyone to receive any wireless transmission, as long as they don't tell anyone what they heard. They had to write a special exception for it for cell phone conversations. But it's what allows people to listen to police calls and military communications even if they don't want you to. This law may permit casino patrons to receive RFID signals.

 

[Titaniumman]

This discussion has no point.

Why would a player, advantage or otherwise, wish to carry an RFID scanner into a casino?

First, the non-casino affiliated person would have to go through considerable and highly technically expertised effort to determine the particular carrier frequency to which the tags in the casino chips are tuned.

Then, all the information the non-casino affiliated person would have is some cryptic hexadecimal statement from the RFID tag which is the tag's identity.

All of the other information is in the casino's IT database, and is not being transmitted.

Basically, each RFID tag in each casino chip is only saying something like, "Hi! I'm RFID tag number 3FA778C6!

Player's comp cards, card scanners in the shoe, mindplay, RFID scanners at each spot on the table and God knows where else, and other similar inputs are providing all of the rest of the information that tells who is betting how much on what kind of hand in what situations and where the chips physically show up next.

The only thing players can do is to find ways to disable the chips or use them to send confusing information to the database.

Whether or not an RFID scanner is a legal device for a player to carry into a casino is a moot point. There's nothing to be gained.