Rules that are affected by counting?

[jack.jackson]

I've read somewhere that when the House hits S17 it hurts the Basic Strategy by .20 but only the Counter by .16. So which one do you use calculate the HE? .20 or .16?

What about Late surrender and all the other rules such as Re-splitting aces?

Re-splitting aces help the BS player by .08 but would this be higher for the counter since we make bigger bets when more aces are coming out? Are there any rules that hurt the counter(lower the advantage) such as unlimited draw on split aces?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I've read somewhere that when the House hits S17 it hurts the Basic Strategy by .20 but only the Counter by .16. So which one do you use calculate the HE? .20 or .16?

What about Late surrender and all the other rules such as Re-splitting aces?

Re-splitting aces help the BS player by .08 but would this be higher for the counter since we make bigger bets when more aces are coming out? Are there any rules that hurt the counter(lower the advantage) such as unlimited draw on split aces?

Neither. You're not a BS player- all of the rules have a non-linear effect by count and your spread and playing indices are going to account for that.

The advantage to the house of hitting soft 17 goes down with count, to the point that in really high counts the difference isn't very significant. It is the opposite with surrender- in high counts where you have a lot of money out it becomes a very powerful rule for the player, especially if you are using all the surrender indices. RSA is similar for exactly the reason you describe, but not as profound as LS.

No play rule hurts the counter, providing he plays it correctly. A rule like drawing to split aces will still help a counter because he's more likely to have big money down when he gets to split aces.

 

[iCountNTrack]

I've read somewhere that when the House hits S17 it hurts the Basic Strategy by .20 but only the Counter by .16. So which one do you use calculate the HE? .20 or .16?

What about Late surrender and all the other rules such as Re-splitting aces?

Re-splitting aces help the BS player by .08 but would this be higher for the counter since we make bigger bets when more aces are coming out? Are there any rules that hurt the counter(lower the advantage) such as unlimited draw on split aces?

When you talk of House Edge you are typically normally talking about the house edge playing the optimal strategy (basic strategy) with a full deck or shoe.

Norm has good tables in MB that show the changes in EV

http://www.qfit.com/book/ModernBlackjackPage106.htm
http://www.qfit.com/book/ModernBlackjackPage107.htm

 

[Sucker]

I've read somewhere that when the House hits S17 it hurts the Basic Strategy by .20 but only the Counter by .16. So which one do you use calculate the HE? .20 or .16?

What about Late surrender and all the other rules such as Re-splitting aces?

Re-splitting aces help the BS player by .08 but would this be higher for the counter since we make bigger bets when more aces are coming out? Are there any rules that hurt the counter(lower the advantage) such as unlimited draw on split aces?

If you're not a counter you'd use the first one, and if you're counting you'd use the second.

Let me explain:
Suppose you're playing a S17 game where you've determined that the penetration combined with your bet spread is yielding you an overall advantage of 2%. Now suppose that they suddenly decide to change the game to H17. Your advantage is now reduced by .16%, to 1.84%. Other rule changes are to be calculated in similar fashion.

 

[jack.jackson]

If you're not a counter you'd use the first one, and if you're counting you'd use the second.

Let me explain:
Suppose you're playing a S17 game where you've determined that the penetration combined with your bet spread is yielding you an overall advantage of 2%. Now suppose that they suddenly decide to change the game to H17. Your advantage is now reduced by .16%, to 1.84%. Other rule changes are to be calculated in similar fashion.

So, it wouldnt be reduced by .20% then? Just .16%? If this rule(H17) only hurts the counter by .16% why not factor this in into a house edge calculator? It seems, that all the HE calcultors ive seen, calculates ONLY the HE for the Basic Strategist! Not the counter!

And what about Late Sr? This rule helps the BS by what, .08% i think. But AM mentioned its muh more valuable for a counter, but yet, a HE calculator(such as the one on this site) only calculates the advantage for the basiic strategy player. What the difference for Late SR anyway, for the counter? It would have to be higher than .08%.

Also suppose, that Re-splitting Aces is offered. Which helps the BS player by .08% but is much higher(i think) for a counter.

If a game is h17 late Sr and RSA and i use our strategy engine, then it's possible those numbers could be way off no? Meaning they're only correct for the BS player.

 

[blackjack avenger]

It All Depends

So, it wouldnt be reduced by .20% then? Just .16%? If this rule(H17) only hurts the counter by .16% why not factor this in into a house edge calculator? It seems, that all the HE calcultors ive seen, calculates ONLY the HE for the Basic Strategist! Not the counter!

And what about Late Sr? This rule helps the BS by what, .08% i think. But AM mentioned its muh more valuable for a counter, but yet, a HE calculator(such as the one on this site) only calculates the advantage for the basiic strategy player. What the difference for Late SR anyway, for the counter? It would have to be higher than .08%.

Also suppose, that Re-splitting Aces is offered. Which helps the BS player by .08% but is much higher(i think) for a counter.

If a game is h17 late Sr and RSA and i use our strategy engine, then it's possible those numbers could be way off no? Meaning they're only correct for the BS player.

It depends on your count and bet ramp. The more aggressive you are the less h17 hurts and the more SR helps, also probably RSA is helped:joker::whip:

 

[Renzey]

And what about Late Sr? This rule helps the BS by what, .08% i think. But AM mentioned its muh more valuable for a counter, It would have to be higher than .08%.

Ran a sim for BJ Bluebook II (pg 165) which shows late surrender benefiting a 1-to-10 spreader by 0.23% while lowering SD just modestly.
H17 hurt by, I think, 0.16%.
RSA? I dunno. But it's probably modestly more than 0.08%

 

[jack.jackson]

Ran a sim for BJ Bluebook II (pg 165) which shows late surrender benefiting a 1-to-10 spreader by 0.23% while lowering SD just modestly.
H17 hurt by, I think, 0.16%.
RSA? I dunno. But it's probably modestly more than 0.08%

The strategy engine on this site says the HE for 2D H17 DAS LSr is .36%

Lets say for example RSA is allowed(.08%) which would bring the HE edge down to .28% for BS player.

Lets assume for the moment that RSA helps the counter by .20%(which is probably close) for a 1:10 spreader.

So the counter gains .04% for h17

.15% for Lsr

and .12% for RSA

.12+.15+.04=.31%

So Now Instead of .28% HE against the BS the Counter has a player edge of .03% so therefore i could start raising my bets @ TC 0????????? provided im using a 1:10 spread?

Renzey do you mean it helped a 1 to 10 spreader by .23% or thats hwat the advantage is?

 

[SleightOfHand]

The strategy engine on this site says the HE for 2D H17 DAS LSr is .36%

Lets say for example RSA is allowed(.08%) which would bring the HE edge down to .28% for BS player.

Lets assume for the moment that RSA helps the counter by .20%(which is probably close) for a 1:10 spreader.

So the counter gains .04% for h17

.15% for Lsr

and .12% for RSA

.12+.15+.04=.31%

So Now Instead of .28% HE against the BS the Counter has a player edge of .03% so therefore i could start raising my bets @ TC 0????????? provided im using a 1:10 spread?

Renzey do you mean it helped a 1 to 10 spreader by .23% or thats hwat the advantage is?

The rules increases your average advantage, but may not necessarily effect the specific advantages at a given TC. That doesn't mean that the advantage at TC 0 is .31% higher.

With LS, the benefits of the rule has a much great $ effect during high counts, which gives us much lower $ variance, which allows you to bet higher according to kelly. A higher spread creates a higher overall advantage, but not an increase in advantage during counts.

With RSA, your advantage during high counts improve because you will be splitting aces more often. Higher advantage, like lower variance, allows kelly to dictate a higher bet, creating an improvement in overall advantage. Note that the higher advantages occur more during high counts, creating an increase in advantage in the high counts, but not so much during neutral counts.

S17 does not have much difference between counters and BS players because the improvement in advantage is fairly equal throughout all TCs. Yes the lower/negative counts has a bigger difference in advantage vs the high counts, but overall its not a huge difference. It is, however, enough of a difference to boost the advantage for the CC a teeny bit.

 

[Renzey]

Renzey do you mean it helped a 1 to 10 spreader by .23% or thats hwat the advantage is?

6 deck game, 1.75 deck cutoff, KISS III count system using its 22 indices, 1-to-10 spread:
S17, DAS: EV =+0.70%
Add in LS: EV =+0.93%

(bet sizes were not changed, but could've been modestly to reap a bit higher EV with the same ROR)

 

[Mr. T]

A liitle off topic. But perhaps Fred or other knowledgeable poster could answer this for me once and for all.

Pair of 8's vs 16 is it still split for ENHC rules? And how much HE difference does it make compared to surrender.

In an unregulated casino like a cruise ship if the casino is playing with a short deck how much a hit will the BS player take. First in HE over full deck and second in using the same BS for the different/wrong deck.