Seeking more blackjack advice. Also some rants.

snorky

Well-Known Member
#1
Over the last month, I feel I've gained more experience in blackjack. However there are a lot of questions I have to those that are experienced. Feel free to answer 1 or all of them.

1) What exactly is the right move with 6,6 vs. 7 and 7,7 vs. 8 in pitch (SD and DD) games. I've seen numerous sources saying different things. Intuitively, I believe the hi-lo count has no correlation in them, and splitting seems to be the correct move... Can someone elaborate on this for H17 DAS, S17 DAS, H17 NDAS, and S17 NDAS deviations. Is there a chart somewhere with the precise indices or is the hi-lo count very poor in estimating the correct play with this.

2) I believe my image matches precisely that of a card counter. My fear is to be backed away from my local casinos. However it seems that the casinos here are tolerable even in DD games. Comparing my local casinos to Reno, I receive no staring or immense interest from the pit boss. Should I play it safe and take a break? I've been hitting these casinos once a week with an average of 4 hour sessions (keep in mind short sessions are impossible, since it takes me 2 hours to get from one to another). I've never sensed heat and the casino is usually very busy. How long would you guys say I'd last spreading 1-8 in greens for DD and 1-20 in reds for shoe games.

3) Should I get paranoid when a pit clerk or floorman takes notice of my play? My first backing came from Reno when a female floorman was just taking interest in watching my game. I didn't get paranoid, and within another 15 minutes I was shown out the door by a pit boss from out of nowhere. Now, the same scenario has occurred in my local casino where I had a female pit clerk watch my game with immerse interest. Not taking the chance, I left the game. Is there a reason to be paranoid when they watch my game or is it merely because they are bored?

4) I finally began to gain interest in the uncommon but abundant game with almost a 3.5% edge. My question is should I play those when I get the chance to at my local casinos? I've spotted several games where I can play 100% correctly to gain the full edge. However I feel uneasy, especially if I've gained the image of a card counter. It would only be obvious that I'm trying to gain some sort of edge from a game where normally a person of my reputation would avoid... Should I go for it or avoid it like a plague? I'm pretty sure they are even less tolerable if I play those games...

5) Is 1/4th to 1/2th kelly of a replenishable ($10,000 to be exact) bankroll too conservative? Ever since I've began to take more interest in the game, I've been playing more and more conservative. I feel I should be playing bigger since I feel like I can afford to, but I don't feel too confident especially hearing horror stories on even teams running bad for thousands of hours (from blackbelt in blackjack). But I feel playing based on a <1.5% ROR is a tad too wimpy... I'm not sure what most people do. I'd like to hear opinions.

6) Ever since my Reno trip, I've won 12/13 sessions. I'm running a little over 1 stdev above EV this month, while more than doubled my initial bankroll in under 200 hours of play. Is this just beginner's luck? Am I suppose to win this many sessions or am I doing something wrong? A big weakness I have is pulling longer sessions whenever I'm in the red. Am I going to see the opposite tail sooner or later and not be optimistic as I am right now?

7) I use hi-opt 1 with a side count of aces in pitch games. I just bet and play accordingly to the adjusted TC with the exception of insurance and 11, where I play accordingly to the unadjusted TC. Recently I've stumbled upon a Hi-opt 2 article where it suggests betting accordingly to the adjusted TC, while playing accordingly to the unadjusted TC for most hands with these exceptions:

for every abundant ace in the deck using hi-opt 2:
a) -2 from unadjusted RC with doubling 11, insurance, and 16.
b) +4 from unadjusted RC with doubling 10 vs. 10.
c) +6 from unadjusted RC with splitting 9,9 vs. 7.

My question is this strategy for hi-opt 2 kind of contradicts that of hi-opt 1 when it tells me to play accordingly to the unadjusted TC for most hands. Did I misinterpret the article and the author or am I suppose to play accordingly to the unadjusted TC? Does this apply to hi-opt 1?

For example, using hi-opt 1, what is the adjusted TC in a DD game with 1 deck remaining, 2 aces seen, with an unadjusted RC of 0 (my wager would assume an unadjusted RC of 2), when I hold 54 (the unadjusted RC becomes 2) in the following scenarios:

1) Dealer holds ace
2) Dealer holds 6
3) Dealer holds 10

8) How do you guys deal with the social factors. My friends (even poker buddies) think I'm wasting time with this. Either they think I'm delusional with the belief that I can beat the house or they think I have better opportunities in poker or a job. My dad thinks I'm delusional as well (even though he fully believes in martingaling roulette after seeing 6 consecutive reds/evens/1-18s).

9) What is the percentage of card counters out there? Ever since becoming educated on this game, to my knowledge I've spotted 3 total with close to 300 hours of play. It seems like 99.9% of the players are ploppies... It's kind of depressing to be the only one with this playing style. It also gets irritating when superstitious players give you crap for playing perfect basic strategy or "taking their bust card" or spreading to two hands (it breaks the flow of the cards).

10) I've also spotted one player in a DD game with a big spread. The one thing I don't understand is he always places a bet on lucky lucky. His spread correlated to mine (no he didn't mimic me) and he would on several occasions not place the lucky lucky bet. He would also stand on 14-16 vs. 7-10 from time to time, yet hit from time to time. I could not figure out whether this character was doing, since his spread was correlated to the count, yet he broke BS and severely several indices while making a "sucker's bet" the majority of the time.

Thanks!
 
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rrwoods

Well-Known Member
#2
snorky said:
10) I've also spotted one player in a DD game with a big spread. The one thing I don't understand is he always places a bet on lucky lucky. His spread correlated to mine (no he didn't mimic me) and he would on several occasions not place the lucky lucky bet. He would also stand on 14-16 vs. 7-10 from time to time, yet hit from time to time. I could not figure out whether this character was doing, since his spread was correlated to the count, yet he broke BS and severely several indices while making a "sucker's bet" the majority of the time.
Sounds like someone who's read a sentence and a half about CC and thinks he knows what he's doing. Also sounds like the casino knows he thinks he knows more than he does.
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#4
snorky said:
4) I finally began to gain interest in the uncommon but abundant game with almost a 3.5% edge. My question is should I play those when I get the chance to at my local casinos? I've spotted several games where I can play 100% correctly to gain the full edge. However I feel uneasy, especially if I've gained the image of a card counter. It would only be obvious that I'm trying to gain some sort of edge from a game where normally a person of my reputation would avoid... Should I go for it or avoid it like a plague? I'm pretty sure they are even less tolerable if I play those games...
Hi Snorky,

Great post!

Do play this uncommon but abundant game with a 3.48% edge. (Note that if you are on the 431 paytable, rather than the preferred 541 table, your edge is only 3.02% with a perfect read). Even after adjusting for the fact that you get fewer rounds per hour than on this game than in BJ, the SCORE on this game is way higher. The SCORE/100 rounds on this game assuming a perfect read and 541 is 400. A good counting game will only have a SCORE of probably 50, but many people play counting-games with a SCORE of 25 or less.

Just don't be stupid with it. Read every thread started by JG on beyondcounting.com for starters.

Spaw
 

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#6
Southpaw said:
If you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting, then why would he be spreading his bets?

Spaw
Maybe your not thinking what AM is thinking :) Why wouldn't he spread his bets?

Bigger question is why would snorky give out details of someones possible play...
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#8
snorky said:
1) What exactly is the right move with 6,6 vs. 7 and 7,7 vs. 8 in pitch (SD and DD) games.
It depends on if the game is DAS or not. Check the BS Engine to compare the two.

snorky said:
7) Recently I've stumbled upon a Hi-opt 2 article where it suggests betting accordingly to the adjusted TC, while playing accordingly to the unadjusted TC for most hands...
You should always use the adjusted count for betting and the unadjusted count for indices. That is the purpose of the side count.

snorky said:
8) Either they think I'm delusional with the belief that I can beat the house or they think I have better opportunities in poker or a job.
I really don't mean to sound rude, but you should seriously consider what they are saying. I would be very surprised if you could not find a job that pays better than counting cards and is much more stable. Most likely there are also much better opportunities around but you are not ready for them yet. Just do it as a hobby and see where it leads. Keep studying and practicing and be realistic about how much you can earn from playing cards. The "My Final Conclusion..." sticky thread sums up the situation for most recreational players, but if you are serious then you can find ways to make some money on the side. The best advice I can give is to always keep your eyes wide open and look for every possible opportunity, but realize that some of the best opportunities are not inside a casino.

-Sonny-
 

snorky

Well-Known Member
#9
Thanks for the replies so far!

Gamblor said:
Maybe your not thinking what AM is thinking :) Why wouldn't he spread his bets?

Bigger question is why would snorky give out details of someones possible play...
I didn't think the info I gave out is sensitive since the side bet, standing against stiffs, and wide bet spreads are quite common.
 

snorky

Well-Known Member
#10
Sonny said:
It depends on if the game is DAS or not. Check the BS Engine to compare the two.



You should always use the adjusted count for betting and the unadjusted count for indices. That is the purpose of the side count.



I really don't mean to sound rude, but you should seriously consider what they are saying. I would be very surprised if you could not find a job that pays better than counting cards and is much more stable. Most likely there are also much better opportunities around but you are not ready for them yet. Just do it as a hobby and see where it leads. Keep studying and practicing and be realistic about how much you can earn from playing cards. The "My Final Conclusion..." sticky thread sums up the situation for most recreational players, but if you are serious then you can find ways to make some money on the side. The best advice I can give is to always keep your eyes wide open and look for every possible opportunity, but realize that some of the best opportunities are not inside a casino.

-Sonny-
I actually agree with what you have to say about a job being better. I don't really see a future in blackjack either, but it is what I feel is the best option I have at this moment in time. I'm not sure what I want to do with my career, but that is a whole new subject.

I've actually just graduated this spring with a degree in finance. My grades unfortunately suffered the past few years because of my addiction to grinding internet poker. Internet poker corrupted my mindset mainly due to moderate success and thus I now have the mindset of "easy money" instead of the working on a 9-5 mentality. Ever since black friday, I've been struggling with the decision on my future and weighed my options between a job, live poker, and blackjack. I highly doubt I will land a decent job with my 2.4 gpa in this economy (my friends with a point higher in this field are either unemployed or working for a wage I do not find acceptable), although I haven't really applied myself or tried. I lack the mindset too so I doubt I will be spoon fed a decent job w/o motivation. The other option is live poker. The game I play, stud h/l, isn't very abundant in this country. Also, the fact that I can only get in 25 hands an hour instead of 400+ hands an hour playing multiple tables online puts another dent into that option. Furthermore blackjack seems to be the only available option at this moment in time. I will probably start looking into taking the CFA as soon as I wear myself out from advantage play...

I also forgot to mention trading as an option, although I am 100% clueless on that subject... I like to stick to what I'm comfortable with.
 
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Gamblor

Well-Known Member
#11
snorky said:
Thanks for the replies so far!



I didn't think the info I gave out is sensitive since the side bet, standing against stiffs, and wide bet spreads are quite common.
You obviously know exactly what he was doing and disingenuously asking a leading question about it.

Either you are a n00b and wouldn't notice and ask this in the first place, or more experienced and should know better than to bring this up, or...
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
#12
Gamblor said:
You obviously know exactly what he was doing and disingenuously asking a leading question about it.

Either you are a n00b and wouldn't notice and ask this in the first place, or more experienced and should know better than to bring this up, or...
Even I am unsure as to what this person in question was up to. My first guess is that he was steering 10s, but as an alternative, I suppose he could have been tracking aces.

Spaw
 

snorky

Well-Known Member
#13
Gamblor said:
You obviously know exactly what he was doing and disingenuously asking a leading question about it.

Either you are a n00b and wouldn't notice and ask this in the first place, or more experienced and should know better than to bring this up, or...
I'd consider myself more along the side of a n00b, since I haven't really been playing this game that long. I honestly did not mean to out anyone's play and I felt what I saw was very interesting, yet weird. It's like a half AP/half ploppy sort of play. I feel if he does have an edge, the side bet would cancel it out (unless there is a way to beat lucky lucky, which I doubt). Also I forgot to mention, he sat through multiple dealers, so I'm pretty sure he wasn't using any advanced techniques.
 
#14
on bank

If truly replenishable; job?, then half Kelly is fine.

Longevity issues:
If u are only playing a few places a lot, then probably best to keep all bets under $100, 2 hands of $75 is fine.

Play some shoes to spread the action.

If u have been playing bigger then above with no heat, then don't bet bigger. Don't press their tolerance.

If the above feels bankroll constraining; its not, because you can? play without resizing your bank on losses. Your long run will be low, very important.
 
#15
Southpaw said:
If you are suggesting what I think you are suggesting, then why would he be spreading his bets?

Spaw
He may have been using a straight count for the BJ, and something else for the Lucky Lucky (which is beatable in a couple of ways) and using the information he had from the something-else to modify his play.
 

snorky

Well-Known Member
#16
Automatic Monkey said:
He may have been using a straight count for the BJ, and something else for the Lucky Lucky (which is beatable in a couple of ways) and using the information he had from the something-else to modify his play.
THere is a way to beat lucky lucky? If so I'd like to know b/c those side games are very abundant around here.
 

AR Nick

Active Member
#17
snorky said:
THere is a way to beat lucky lucky? If so I'd like to know b/c those side games are very abundant around here.
If you've only been playing at this store recently, I have a feeling I know which one it is. I also think you should reconsider calling this fellow a ploppy. Lucky Lucky is beatable and great cover. I've reached the point where my sidebet winnings for this month are better than my straight winnings (which have been, sadly, on the opposite end of the zero for August).
 

gothic

Well-Known Member
#18
Imho

In the casino I frequent, (which is nothing like the casinos I hear of in NV, heat-wise) it seems that the only people who ever get heat are over-the-top obvious (mumbling, etc). A bet spread might be a widely-known thing, but I've never once felt heat when raising my bet, so I switched from 1-10 to 1-12 at a 6-deck shoe game, and 1-4 to 1-5 at a single deck game. Not quite the spread you described, but if you have been to a spot for a few times and can tell whether or not the floor sweats, then I say play it as far as reason allows. That's what I am currently doing :eyepatch:

Gothic
 
#19
Dark Side

Snorky and the Dark Side of gambling..........

Paying a fortune to go to college, or someone else is, and online poker corrupts you to the point where your grades slip to the 2+ range and thus threaten your ability to get a good job in the REAL world,,and further corrupts your mind into the easy money mindset to the point you may not want to work in the REAL world economy.:(

Snorky, few full time pro's here, most have a job that hopefully comes first, then plays as a side thing, a serious side thing in most instances, but work always first.

CP
 
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