Seriously off topic...

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
#1
August 17, 2005 | Issue 41*33

KANSAS CITY, KS-As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/
 
#4
Seriously - Mathematics of Evolution (according to HOYLE and others)

A Knighted Astronomer's Fight Against Neo-Darwinism,
Using Mathematics As His Weapon.
(Dead link: http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho46.htm)
a review by Gert Korthof | 3 Dec 2004
--------------
"The Darwinian theory is wrong and the continued adherence to it is an impediment to discovering the correct evolutionary theory"
-- Fred Hoyle
-----------------

There isn't any outsider who penetrated so deep in population genetics as astronomer- mathematician Sir Fred Hoyle, with such a mathematical knowledge, with such an integrity to find out the truth, and without distorting his subject of investigation.

Fred Hoyle was a lifelong Darwin, Darwinism and evolution critic. Every Darwin critic appears to know his famous Boeing-747 story to criticise the origin of life by pure chance. The story was much quoted, often without access to the original source. Mathematics of Evolution originally circulated as copies of a hand-written manuscript back in 1987, and has now for the first time been printed. This is fortunate because his Evolution from space(1981) and Why Neo-Darwinism Does Not Work(1982) are out of print.

... continued here - (Dead link: http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho46.htm)

------------------

And then there's Sir Francise Crick -
http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/SC/Views/Exhibit/narrative/neurobiology.html
(from The Francis Crick Papers
From Molecular Biology to Neurobiology, 1976-2004)

"Crick was drawn by his longtime friend Leslie Orgel into yet another field, the study of the origins of life and of evolution, a field to which Orgel had devoted his career. It was an area of science that, like molecular biology and neurobiology, attracted him because he found there a similar need for a unifying theory. No less did he find there cause to argue against creationist or, as he called them, vitalist views, the belief that life was created and sustained by an animating, metaphysical force whose existence could not be proven. In a book entitled Life Itself, published in 1981, Crick posited instead that life on earth originated from microorganisms deliberately seeded by a higher civilization via unmanned spaceships. Crick called his speculative theory "directed panspermia," a reference to the idea of "panspermia" advanced in 1907 by Svante Aarhenius, who suggested that life on earth had been seeded by microorganisms drifting through space. Crick's theory proceeded from the fact that the genetic code is uniform across almost all species and thus likely evolved from a small original or intermediate population, and from the second fact that the earth is less than half the age of the universe, allowing time for life to evolve elsewhere first before it evolved here."

---------------

An Exploration of Different Theories of Evolution
here - http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f01/web3/baird.html

"Another alternative to neo-Darwinism, is Brig Klyce's theory of strong panspermia. According to Klyce's theory of strong panspermia, " microorganisms from space provide the new genes necessary for sustained macroevolutionary progress on Earth" . (5) In strong panspermia, evolution does not rely on random point mutations, but rather on horizontal gene transfer. (3) Microorganisms (possibly bacteria) from space insert a gene into another organism. The new gene may give the organism the capacity to better adapt to its environment and thus evolve. Bacteria on Earth perform horizontal gene transfer in place of reproducing sexually. (6) Bacteria can sometimes carry out a type of horizontal gene transfer called conjugation which can occur between bacteria and eukaryotic cells in which long fragments of DNA are transferred. (6) There have even been cases where a virus will invade a cell and its genetic material will be incorporated into the host cell's genetic material and benefit the host cell. (6) Klyce believes this phenomenon took place between organisms on Earth and bacteria from a different planet, and resulted in macroevolution. (4)Klyce feels his theory of strong panspermia can answer the issues that neo-Darwinism fails to address. " Many eukaryotic genes...seem to come from nowhere," observes scientist W. Ford Doolitle. (5) According to Klyce, these genes didn't come from nowhere; they came from another planet. The discovery of some genes that appear older than they should be according to the fossil record, leads Kyce to the conclusion that these genes were brought by bacteria (that had probably started evolving much earlier) from another planet. (5) Klyce believes his theory of strong panspermia --since it relies on the replacement of entire genes rather than point mutations-- would match the actual pattern of evolution. (3) Strong panspermia also might be able to account for the sudden bursts of evolution. An influx of bacteria from outer space would cause a rapid replacement of different genes and cause widespread changes in organisms resulting in accelerated evolution."

"Statistically, the life that exists on earth today is highly, highly, HIGHLY improbable. As mathematician David Belinski points out " from a mathematical point of view, Darwinian theories appear far too weak to have brought about the remarkable structures evident in living creatures." (17) If one assumes that all life arose out of random generations of proteins then there's a problem. First of all, every known example of genetic mutation either produces no noticeable change or causes death (or in rare cases undoes the mistake of a past mutation). (19) Yet, Darwinian evolution relies on random point mutations creating lots of biological advantages. The ratio of useful proteins to possible random proteins is 1:10500. (18) Therefore, barring incredible luck, it would take about 10500 trials to produce one useful protein when a cell needs a minimum of one to two thousand proteins. (18) Hence, life appeared on earth (and evolved) too quickly for the Darwinian theory of evolution to be completely correct."

... more here - http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f01/web3/baird.html
 

BlackJackHack

Well-Known Member
#5
Backwards in Kansas, Forwards in Pennsylvania *LINK*

At least the morons who voted in favor of teaching intelligent design in Dover, PA have ALL been voted off of the school board. Of course, the downside is that it may render moot the Pennsylvania court case in which the teaching of intelligent design was likely to be held to be unconstitutional.
 
#6
Think you got it backwards

Research into the possibility of an intelligent designer of what we see around is is a worthwhile endeavor of the highest order. It may be a little steep for schoolchildren, but so is evolutionary biology. Adults should not be using the minds of children as the battlefield of their vanities and all kinds of ideas should be presented in schools, without hostilities.
 

Mayor

Well-Known Member
#7
I agree...

ZG,

Please re-open the ZZ somewhere so that those of us with the urge have somewhere to go. This includes your pictures of GB.

Since both the non-BJ and ZZ pages were taken down, it is only appropriate to allow off-topic posts here, but both myself and management have not really figured out the scope of what we are comfortable with. Our growing pains are evident.

Thanks,

Mayor
 
#8
OK, maybe I will, BUT FIRST - The Science Vs Religion Hoax

Smug Man Vs Straw Man -
The Science Vs Religion Hoax

By Michael Goodspeed
Thunderbolts.info
11-10-5

At a recent lunch meeting with a friend, I was asked to identify a single ability or asset human beings must have in order to live successfully. Put to this test, my initial instinct was to blurt out such answers as, "Love! Courage! Forgiveness! Inner peace!" But I forced myself to pause for a moment of introspection, and almost immediately, the answer came to me.

"The greatest asset anyone can have is the ability to tell what is true from what is not."

And my friend raised his eyebrows, seemingly both in pleasure and surprise. He agreed that this is this the most essential ingredient to successful living -- and furthermore, it is a quality that much of humanity has always lacked.

We have difficulty distinguishing between truth and falsehood, because so often, our real choices are misrepresented. If one is told that the path to truth can only be found on roads A or B -- but in reality, both roads lead to a bottomless chasm -- what true choice does one have?

This problem is exacerbated in contemporary society, where a handful of huge corporations have bought the majority of TV, radio, and print media. Meaningful debate is stymied by the (often deliberate) misrepresentation of our choices. Incredibly complex and multi-layered issues are distorted so that they appear as simple matters of black and white, either-or.

In political discussions in the U.S., people who call themselves either "conservative" or "liberal" take turns engaging in polemics and ad hominem attacks. Rarely do popular political commentators offer positive ideas for action, but endlessly accuse one another of hypocrisy, dishonesty, and sleaziness. This breeds divisiveness and close-mindedness in the populace, feeding the myth that a "two-party," left or right political system is the only possible reality in America. And it actively discourages true intellectual vision -- a desire to learn as much as possible wherever that path might lead.

This perversion of reality by popular media touches every area of human interest. Take, for instance, recent coverage of the so-called Science vs. Religion debate. This phrase is used with increasing regularity, as natural disasters, terrorism, fears over coming "pandemics," and warfare have many wondering if we are living in the "end times" prophesied in the Bible. The phrase is also used to frame the evolution vs. "intelligent design" debate - a debate forged by a kind of hidden cooperation between the two sides. Both are happy to "debate" the question, as if the debate precludes other possibilities. One side or the other MUST be correct. For most in the news media, all of this comes down to choosing either the literal interpretations of scripture advocated by Christian fundamentalists versus the disciplined, rational, feet-on-the-ground observations of respected scientists. It's simply a case of "blind faith" vs. "rationality."

Personally, I have no religious beliefs, and I am happy to see the "historical accuracy" of the Bible put to the test by science. But I don't think it is "irrational" either to believe in an active "intelligence" in the universe, or to question the tenability of popular scientific theories such as Darwin's model of evolution by "natural selection." In fact, I suspect that the Evangelicals framed the debate in these terms because they know that most humans have a dependable level of good sense: most will not accept the idea that mere biological mechanics could account for the unfathomable sophistication of living organisms. So if you side with intelligent design, the Evangelicals think they win, which is nonsense.

I agree that a literal interpretation of Biblical accounts, including the story of Creation, is not tenable. But I will not be tricked into believing that the best alternative to religious dogma is atheism and its counterpart materialism (the belief that physical matter is the only reality). In truth, science lends no support at all to the materialist's ideology. Increasing numbers of scientists are exploring questions of spirit and consciousness, and their findings contradict the empty and disconnected Universe envisioned by materialists.

The movie "What the Bleep Do We Know" achieved immense popularity because it spoke for what so many individuals have long recognized, even if they could not express the conviction in words: that there is more to "reality" than the three-dimensional world. "What the Bleep" featured scholars like Dr. Masaru Emoto, who has demonstrated that thoughts and feelings have a measurable effect on physical matter (i.e. water.) Also featured were esteemed scientists like quantum physicist John Hagelin, Ph.D., who discussed a study in Washington D.C., which showed a direct correlation between a group's practice of transcendental meditation, and a reduction of crime in their area. (For an overview of this study, see www.istpp.org/crime_prevention).

Other scholars whose works argue against the philosophy of materialism include Dr. Rupert Sheldrake (the psychic connections between humans and their pets), Dr. Gary Schwartz (psychic mediums and the afterlife), Dr. Larry Dossey (the effects of prayer on physical healing), and Dr. Raymond Moody (life after life). None of these researchers have provided "proof positive" of God or a spiritual dimension, but they certainly have experience that goes above and beyond the blind faith of institutionalized religion and/or materialistic science.

But of course, true spiritual discovery is not about proving or disproving this or that "phenomenon" in the eyes of others. Even if it were possible to empirically prove the existence of God, I don't believe this would necessarily be of benefit to the human race. To live a spiritual life, one need not believe in "mystical" or "supernatural" principles, but only to devote oneself unconditionally to seeing the truth in every situation.

And more and more people are waking up to this not-so-little secret. Many spiritual guidebooks have emerged in recent years which teach a philosophy contrary to the Christianity of modern Evangelicals. In my opinion, the works of people like Eckhart Tolle ("The Power of Now"), David R. Hawkins ("The Eye of the I"), and the spiritual manual "A Course in Miracles" are of more value than any religious doctrine, because they deal directly with a destructive thought system. ACIM states: "You may believe that you are responsible for what you do, but not for what you think. The truth is that you are responsible for what you think, because it is only at this level that you can exercise choice. What you do comes from what you think."

And what I think is that the inane Science vs. Religion debate has little or nothing to tell us about the nature of God, spirit, or the Universe as a whole. Skepticism of the Bible is NOT a repudiation of spiritual reality. I have no use for dogma -- scientific OR religious. Given the choice between a smug man and a straw man, I choose neither.
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
#9
Nonsense

This author quotes a number of studies that have been thoroughly debunked.

For example, Dr. Larry Dossey (the effects of prayer on physical healing). Dossey directly assessed if patients had improved or not, with prior knowledge of which group they were part of.

The TM study has been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked as well. Many times.

Articles like this one only show the ignorance of the writer, and if one believes them, show the unwillingness (or laziness) of the reader to critically consider the cited sources.

You can do better than to post tripe like this, ZG.
 
#10
Pat Robertson Curses Dover, Pennsylvania *PIC*

Pat Robertson Curses Pennsylvania Town
(Dead link: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=3641)
 
#11
'Tripe' indeed, where do you come by your info?

I ask because the Dossey study (I read the book) as well as the TM data, I beleived to be valid science. Where (please)? zg

---------

Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June-July 1993

"Analysis of 1993 data, controlling for temperature, revealed that there was a highly significant decrease in HRA crimes associated with increases in the size of the group during the Demonstration Project. The maximum decrease was 23.3% when the size of the group was largest during the final week of the project. The statistical probability that this result could reflect chance variation in crime levels was less than 2 in 1 billion (p < .000000002). When a longer baseline is used (1988-1993 data), the maximum decrease was 24.6% during this period (p < .00003). When analyzed as a separate variable, robberies did not decrease significantly, but a joint analysis of both HRA crimes and robberies indicated that violent crimes as a whole decreased significantly to a maximum amount of 15.6% during the final week of the project (p = .0008). Analysis of 1993 data, controlling for temperature, revealed that there was a highly significant decrease in HRA crimes associated with increases in the size of the group during the Demonstration Project."

Full summary here: http://istpp.org/crime_prevention/
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
#12
Exactly!

There are articles ad-nauseum debunking Dossey and TM and all the other "bleep" pseudo-science.... all you have to do is look...

Here's one on Dossey (sheesh, just do a google search, you can find 100's of articles debunking his work):

(Dead link: http://www.csicop.org/sb/2004-03/reality-check.html)

The TM study is a tougher nut. The study is already 12 years old, so most of the articles are not on the web. But, you can start with:

Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud. Robert L. Park. 230 pp. Oxford University Press, 2000, $25.

Etc...

To keep this simple, just start by reading this book:

# Why People Believe Weird Things
# Paperback: 306 pages
# Publisher: W.H. Freeman & Company (September 19, 1998)
# Language: English
# ISBN: 0716733870

--Mayor
 

BlackJackHack

Well-Known Member
#13
Kansas - moving forward to the 1600s

"all kinds of ideas should be presented in schools"

we need to present both sides of the following issues:
(a) the earth is round vs. (b) the earth is flat
(a) the earth revolves around the sun vs. (b) the earth is the center of the universe (remember, Galileo was excommunicated for espousing the former position, which was at odds with church doctrine)

If we are to expose our children to new ideas, why not also teach the Hindu creation theory? Why not the creation theories of the 250 different tribes on New Guinea? Shouldn't our children benefit from their considerable wisdom? Or should they only benefit from the wisdom of what happens to be the local majority religion?

Actually, there IS a place for children to learn about those ideas - a class on comparative religion.

Oh, I forget, intelligent design is science, right -- science that magically materialized immediately after the courts held that "creationism" was religion (creationism and creation science seem to have mysteriously disappeared). The creation theories of the majority religion are still religion, no matter what you try to call them, and should not be taught as science.

Anyway, I wish Kansas the best of luck in trying to attract high-paying tech jobs. Kansas will need it.
 
#14
CSICOP! (The "paradigm police") Puhleese...

"Everything about CSICOP purports to be scientific -- objective, fair, independent, investigative, rational. In reality, CSICOP is the home of the Paradigm Police, a kind of Pseudoscience-Central that deals in fundamentalist prejudice, opinion and bias, informed by a single, central hidden agenda -- to debunk at any cost any phenomenon, evidence or theory that touches on the list of taboo subjects that CSICOP has drawn up as forbidden."
-- from (Dead link: http://www.alternativescience.com/csicop.htm)

--------------

Eliot - I think that your eductaion process has rooted you too firmly of late in a materialistic-SCIENTISM paradigm... probably time for another LSD trip!

BUT anyway, Masaru Emoto's work is but one of many that PROVE that thought DOES AFFECT MATTER. zg

...Masaru Emoto's work here - http://www.wellnessgoods.com/messages.asp

------------

scientism

Scientism, in the strong sense, is the self-annihilating view that only scientific claims are meaningful, which is not a scientific claim and hence, if true, not meaningful. Thus, scientism is either false or meaningless. This view seems to have been held by Ludwig Wittgenstein in his Tractatus Logico-philosophicus (1922) when he said such things as "The totality of true propositions is the whole of natural science..." He later repudiated this view.

... from http://skepdic.com/scientism.html
 
#15
P.E.A.R & Global Consciousness Project

... excerpted from The Science Of Collective Consciousness by Robert Kenny
(Dead link: http://wie.org/j25/kenny.asp)

"Dean Radin, the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) Lab, and Roger Nelson's Global Consciousness Project have taken research into consciousness "field effects" even further-into the realm of mind/matter interactions-by conducting a series of intriguing experiments with random number-generating (RNG) computers. RNGs can basically be thought of as sophisticated coin-flipping machines, programmed to issue zeroes or ones randomly. That is, just as if you were to flip a coin one hundred times and could expect the "heads" and "tails" sides to come up fifty times each, so it is with an RNG-producing, on average, an equal number of zeroes and ones. Ordinary people, however, have used the power of thought alone to create order out of this randomness, causing RNGs that were sometimes thousands of miles away to issue significantly more of one number over many trials, simply by intending to do so."

---------------

GCP -
http://www.princeton.edu/~rdnelson/ (Archive copy)
http://www.parapsych.org/members/r_d_nelson.html
PEAR -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_Engineering_Anomalies_Research_Lab
(Dead link: http://www.mtec-ag.de/dasneueste.asp?lang=eng)
 
#16
Closed-mindedness is not a virtue

I don't recall anyone suggesting that we teach the religious perspectives on the origin of the universe and of man to schoolchildren. And I'm of the mind that no one at a lower educational level than the very best high school students is prepared to be taught metaphysics of any kind, theoretical physics, advanced information theory (these things being the fundamentals of intelligent design science), OR modern evolutionary biology. Most adults are not prepared to study this kind of material.

So lets not BS each other. The extremists on both sides (that is, the religious and atheistic extremists) are trying to show each other who's boss and using kids as the pawns. Elementary school is a place to learn use of language, mathematics, reasoning skills, and not a place to cover PhD level material because there is no way to present it to children as anything other than dogma. In order for education to be legitimate the student must have some ability to challenge what he is being taught, to say "I don't think so Professor, can you prove what you just asserted?" and no child can do that with either Darwinism or ID.
 

BlackJackHack

Well-Known Member
#17
We should be "open minded" to valid competing scientific theories, but not to religious dogma masquerading as science

"I don't recall anyone suggesting that we teach the religious perspectives on the origin of the universe and of man to schoolchildren"

Precisely my point - ID is nothing more than the Old Testament creation myth with a new name (creationism didn't pass constitutional muster, so now it's called ID) - it is religion. Science starts with empirical observation followed by a hypothesis (if not a conclusion) that explains the evidence. Religion starts with a conclusion and then does whatever it can to attempt justify it with empirical observation while necessarily disregarding any contrary evidence.

I would have no problem teaching competing scientific theories alongside evolution, but ID is NOT a scientific theory. Among serious scientists, there are differences of opinion about certain fine points of evolutionary biology, but there are no differences of opinion about the basic premise of evolution that the better adapted organisms will survive to pass on their genetic traits, any more than there is a difference of opinion on the existence of gravity, or whether the earth revolves around the sun (the latter used to be the souce of considerable tension between science and religion until religion threw in the towel).

Frankly, evolution is NOT very complicated, and could be easily understood by even mediocre high school students. Teaching biology without teaching evolution, moreover, would be a joke -- like teaching U.S. history without mentioning the Civil War or slavery because they are too controversial or divisive. Virtually every trait of every biological organism has a function that enhances its prospects for survival and breeding.

"The extremists on both sides (that is, the religious and atheistic extremists) are trying to show each other who's boss"

So, those who espouse teaching evolutionary biology are "atheistic extremists." Wow.

Please don't try to equate scientists who devote their lives to the study of biology (and the other sciences) with the fundamentalist extreme right (the American Taliban) who are the least "open-minded" people in our society, and seek to impose their religious beliefs on others through our public institutions. The fundamentalist right has a big problem with evolutionary biology because it contradicts Genesis. Unlike scientists, they don't seem to have any interest in physics, organic chemistry, mathematics, or other areas of scientific inquiry. Why isn't there a vigorous debate about the teaching of "multiple viewpoints" in physics , organic chemistry and computer science? Because the religious right does not give a crap about them.
 
#18
Case for "panspermia" - Hardy lichen shown to survive in space

"The experiment adds weight to the theory of panspermia - that life could somehow be transported between planets, perhaps by hitching a ride on an asteroid."

---------------

Hardy lichen shown to survive in space

10 November 2005
NewScientist.com news service

Lichens can survive unprotected in the harsh conditions of space, a European Space Agency experiment discovers.

The organisms are a composite of algae and fungi. They are commonly found on the surface of rocks on Earth and can survive in extreme conditions such as high mountains latitudes. Lichens are the most complex form of life now known to have survived prolonged exposure to space.

In an experiment led by Leopoldo Sancho from the Complutense University of Madrid, two species of lichen - Rhizocarpon geographicum and Xanthoria elegans - were sealed in a capsule and launched on a Russian Soyuz rocket on 31 May 2005.

Once in Earth orbit, the lid of the container opened and the samples were exposed to the space environment for nearly 15 days before the lid resealed and the capsule returned to Earth.

The lichens were subjected to the vacuum of space and to temperatures ranging from -20°C on the night side of the Earth, to 20°C on the sunlit side. They were also exposed to glaring ultraviolet radiation of the Sun.

"To our big surprise, everything went fine after the flight," says Rene Demets, ESA's project scientist for the Foton project. "The lichens were in exactly the same shape as before flight."
Hitching a ride

In space, the lichens turned dormant and did not metabolize, but once returned to Earth, they returned to their normal activity and their DNA appeared not to have been damaged, Demets told New Scientist. All of the lichen appeared to endure the ultraviolet radiation, even those receiving the most exposure.

Lichens have a tough mineral coating that could shield them from UV rays. They are also made from individual organisms layered on top of one another, so outer layers may provide protection for underlying cells. The organisms have already been shown to be capable of withstand high levels of UV radiation on Earth.

The experiment adds weight to the theory of panspermia - that life could somehow be transported between planets, perhaps by hitching a ride on an asteroid. It also indicates that organisms similar to lichens might be able to survive on the surface of Mars - at least during the planet's summer.

Symbiotic relationship

Although the Martian atmosphere is very thin, it is filled with carbon dioxide, which is necessary for lichens' photosynthesis. The lichens might not survive on Mars for long, however, because of low oxygen levels in the atmosphere.

In the 1980s, experiments carried out on NASA's Long Duration Exposure Facility satellite showed that certain bacteria are hardy enough to endure space. Rocco Mancinelli, a microbial ecologist with the SETI Institute in California, who has also done experiments with micro-organisms in space, says he is not surprised to see lichens survive outside the Earth's atmosphere.

The algae and fungi that make up lichens exist in a symbiotic relationship. The algae provide the fungi with food while the fungi offer the algae a cozy living environment.
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
#19
Not understanding science

Science is the opposite of closed-minded. One goal of science is to give natural explanations for observed phenomena. Take away the word *natural* and it ain't science. It's the supernatural, or religion, or philosophy, or just wacky. But it ain't science.

Give a *testable* hypothesis, under conditions where the test can be repeated, and make sure the hypothesis is a condition that can be *falsified*, then we have a criteria for a scientific discussion. Without these conditions, it is something else, and belongs elsewhere in education.

Because religious belief cannot be falsified, it is not science, and does not belong in a science curriculum. Include it all you want in a *religious studies* or *comparative religions* course. But it is not science, so does not belong in a science course.

Finally, evolution has given many benificial consequenes. Medicines, foods, agriculture, and many other tangiable benefits have come from the theory of evolution. Those are *tangiable* benefits that would not exist without the use of evolutionary theory. What tangiable benefit has the theory of creation given? Is there a medicine, a plant, a bomb, or a product that exists because of this theory? And don't say "religion" is a product that has benefits, because that kind of circular reasoning works equally well for any noun (pizza is a product that has benefits, but it isn't taught in science class, similarly, all metaphors have benefits.... ), and renders religion a tautology without meaning (which is essentially my view anyway).

I really dislike this thread. It is nothing more than the voodoo science of the ploppys encroaching into much more precious areas of life than the tables. Keep voodoo off this site. Please have this discussion anywhere else but here.

-Mayor
 

The Mayor

Well-Known Member
#20
I'd like to meet that child!

>student must have some ability to challenge what he is being taught, to say "I don't think so Professor, can you prove what you just asserted?"

Student asks: Professor, can you prove 1+1 = 2?

Having taught mathematics to would-be teachers for 15 years, I doubt more than a tiny handful even understand the equation 1+1=2, let alone prove it. I attempt to give them some background, to discuss abelian groups and the Grothendick construction of the integers from Peano's axioms. But honestly, I'm not sure that many get it. I'm not sure I fully understand the equation. I also teach it to my Sophomore students here at UCSB. In this case, I approach it via set theory, where we define 0 to be the cardinality of the empty set, 1 to be the cardinality of the power set of the empty set, and 2 to be the untion of 0 and 1. After that, we need to discuss equivalence relations in order to understand =, and binary operations are functions of two varaibles, so we have to go through all that to understand what + means. Finally, I can prove 1+1 = 2. That's to college students. I go through this proof to make a point to them. I'm not sure you get it.

Now what is it you want the high-school teacher to prove?

I will also admit, in 27 years of teaching, I have never had a student arrogantly disbelieve me and ask for proof. They may ask for clarification of a point they don't understand. Teachers are just presenting results proven by others, and often defer to the scholars for such proof when necessary.

As for evolution. One does not "prove" evolution. It is too complicated for that. It's like saying to "prove" biology, or "prove" history. It is an area of study inside of which are countless individual hypotheses that are tested using the standard scientific models, and found to either hold up or are discarded. Out of this myriad of understanding, there may be a couple areas that evolution hasn't been able to fully understand yet, but that's what's scinece is all about -- exploring the unknown. The huge body of firmly understood and proven aspects of evolution do not suddenly become suspect because one other thing isn't fully known or understood.

--Mayor
 
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